SOUND PROJECTIONS
AN ONLINE QUARTERLY MUSIC MAGAZINE
EDITOR: KOFI NATAMBU
SPRING, 2018
VOLUME FIVE NUMBER TWO
GERI ALLEN
Featuring the Musics and Aesthetic Visions of:
TOMEKA REID
(January 27--February 2)
FARUQ Z. BEY
(February 3--9)
HANK JONES
(February 10--16)
STANLEY COWELL
(February 17–23)
GEORGE RUSSELL
(February 24—March 2)
ALICE COLTRANE
(March 3–9)
DON CHERRY
(March 10–16)
MAL WALDRON
(March 17–23)
JON HENDRICKS
(March 24–30)
MATTHEW SHIPP
(March 31–April 6)
PHAROAH SANDERS
(April 7–13)
WALT DICKERSON
(April 14–20)https://www.allmusic.com/artist/walt-dickerson-mn0000814745/biography
Walt Dickerson
(1928-2008)
Artist Biography by Chris Kelsey
Walt Dickerson made an impact when he first emerged in the early '60s -- he won the Down Beat Critic's Poll as New Star in 1962 -- but as the years passed he became much less visible. Dickerson graduated from Morgan State College in 1953. After serving in the Army from 1953-1955, he settled in California, where he led a band that included Andrew Cyrille and Andrew Hill. In his early-'60s heyday, Dickerson played the clubs on the New York scene. He worked with Sun Ra, recording Impressions of a Patch of Blue in 1965. Shortly thereafter, Dickerson retired from performing for nearly a decade and returning in 1975. In the years 1977-1978, he made the bulk of his recordings for the Steeplechase label, which included duos with Sun Ra, guitarist Pierre Dørge, and bassist Richard Davis. Also in 1978, Dickerson recorded in a quartet with pianist Albert Dailey. Dickerson was one of the few vibists to exhibit an awareness of free jazz techniques, though he was manifestly conversant in the language of post-bop. Although not heard as a leader on disc after 1982, Dickerson subsequently performed around his native Philadelphia; he died in Willow Grove, PA, of cardiac arrest in May 2008.
According to a memo sent out by the drummer Andrew Cyrille, the vibraphonist Walt Dickerson, one of the most elusive of the great jazz musicians, died on May 15th, at the age of eighty. Dickerson made few recordings; after a spate of remarkable ones through which he earned renown in the early nineteen-sixties (including “To My Queen,” “Impressions of ‘A Patch of Blue,’” and “Unity,” which is reissued on the import “Vibes in Motion),” there was a decade-long silence, followed by a reappearance in the mid-nineteen-seventies. He made his last recording in 1982, and then, despite offers to perform publicly, remained resolutely out of the spotlight until his death. Dickerson is, simply, the most innovative vibes player after Lionel Hampton and Milt Jackson; his rapid-fire barrage of short, metallic notes, reminiscent of John Coltrane’s “sheets of sound” and Eric Dolphy’s frenetic flurries (Dickerson and Dolphy were close friends), extracted surprising harmonic riches from familiar tunes, and often did so with a puckish humor that belied the tenderness with which he could caress a melody. In the liner notes for “Impressions of ‘A Patch of Blue,’ Francis Davis, who has written for this magazine, described Dickerson’s unusual technique:
Dickerson’s first step upon buying a new pair of mallets is to strip away their fur; he then soaks the exposed rubber tips in a mineral solution to get a sound he describes as “plush,” though paradoxically, it is also hard. His use of smaller mallets, gripped closer to the tip than is the custom for vibraphonists, allows Dickerson extraordinary speed on the bars.Here’s a fascinating interview with Dickerson, from 2003.—Richard Brody
http://darkforcesswing.blogspot.com/2007/06/in-full-1-walt-dickerson.html
Thursday, June 14, 2007
In Full #1: Walt Dickerson
hello, hello...
long time, no post, but i've been cooking up this new feature, "In Full."
basically "In Full" will consist of unedited interview transcripts. over the years, i've spoken with many musicians for various outlets (Time Out New York, Signal to Noise, Jazz Times, WKCR, etc.). one thing i've always regretted is how much of these conversations i have to abandon when the story in question finally goes to press.
i realized that i had a ton of these transcripts archived and that it might be fun/informative to publish them in full on this blog. so here we are. the archive includes talks with everyone from Rashied Ali to Zach Hill of Hella, Steve Lacy to Mick Barr of Orthrelm. so please stay tuned for future installments.
for this kick-off edition of "In Full," the choice was a no-brainer. four years ago, in June of '03, i spent an afternoon with the vibraphonist Walt Dickerson, who is quite simply one of the most intense people i've ever conversed with. if you're not familiar with Dickerson, he made a few straight-ahead hard-boppish discs in the early '60s, and then a fairly out-there one called "To My Queen" (which featured early appearances from Andrew Hill and Andrew Cyrille). years of silence followed, and then in the late '70s, Dickerson re-emerged playing some extremely ethereal and gorgeous free jazz, released on an incredible series of Steeplechase LPs. after that, there was one record for Soul Note in '82 and then nothing since.
in 2003, i did a piece on Andrew Cyrille for All About Jazz and we got to talking about Walt. according to Cyrille, he was living in a suburb of Philly and was easily reachable by phone. i arranged to do a story on Dickerson for Jazz Times, called him up and then paid him a visit soon after. i had an incredible time and, as you'll read, came away thinking that i was actually going to be able to arrange some new recordings or performances for Dickerson. but it was not to be: he never returned any of my follow-up correspondence, and to my knowledge, he never even saw the piece that i published in Jazz Times. i've tried several times to get back in touch, but to no avail. at least i have this document of an incredible afternoon.
for more Walt info, please check Damon Short's database. there was an earlier interview with him in the webzine One Final Note, but it seems to have gone offline. as far as i know, my talk w/ Dickerson is the longest one currently on record. it goes without saying that if anyone knows Walt's whereabouts, please urge him to get in touch. as you'll read, he's truly an amazing thinker, both musically and philosophically. without further ado, here's part one of our talk. (i've done my best to comb the transcript for typos, but please let me know if i've overlooked anything...)
*****
Walt Dickerson Interview [part two can be found here]
near Philadelphia, PA; 6/29/03
HS: So you’re from Philadelphia?
WD: Philadelphia, yes, place of birth.
HS: And you were born...
WD: Obviously [laughs]. I engage in a bit of levity from time to time; that makes it very wholesome. I don’t really adhere to dates. To get caught up in the chronological aspect of things over a period of time can have a detrimental effect on the mind and the body, thinking in such a restricted area as the chronological factor or that mode. Since yesterday and tomorrow are today on the space-timeline of infinity, that helps me to remain free and unfettered. So that’s my response to “When?”
I’ve seen some things happen to many people that were caught up in the chronological aspect of things: “This is supposed to happen at a certain point in your life. That is supposed to happen at a certain point in your life.” Part of what makes that happen is that belief that it should happen at that point in one’s life. There again one brings it on one’s self because of choice; the choice is believing in that chronological aspect of things. So I remain ageless; beautiful dynamic, vital and strong.
HS: You’ve said that two of your biggest influences were “The Two Johns,” Dennis and Coltrane. Can you tell me about your relationships with them?
WD: Well we came up in the same era, the same vicinity. We shared thoughts about life, which cannot be separated from our musical projections. What you hear in the musical projections are really our view and study of life, and we had tremendous interchange. The interchange was heaviest between John Dennis and myself; we were inseparable coming up, like the inseparable twins as such. He was allowed to create when he came to our house; he could not create the music that he desired to create in his house because of the restrictions leveled by his, quote [finger quotes], “religious” parents. My parents were religious also, but they loved music. My mother was a pianist; my father sang in a choir. And my mother always encouraged John and myself, and he would play for her and she enjoyed it tremendously. John also had a photographic mind, very capable of also doing three things simultaneously. As so often happens in America, his genius did not yield the fruits that it should have.
Trane, we discussed things a lot, and the discussions were very thought-provoking; they stayed mainly in the musical sphere: things we could do, superimpositions in particular. Because this was not embraced by the main cadre of musicians. They called it [finger quotes] “safe ground”; they’d rather be on safe ground. For some reason even early on, to me that was very restricting because I heard things outside of, quote, safe ground, beautiful things that were even against some of the things that were taught in the universities, as far as musical projections were concerned. So sometimes at first, you would venture and then you would withdraw from that area; when you were aware that you were there, you would withdraw. But while you were there, it was so enjoyable, and the only reason you withdrew was because the teachings, the Western teachings that we were exposed to in the university, conservatory, we realized later how restricting some of these tenets were. I had nothing but the greatest of admiration, love and respect for the genius of John and John. And I realized later that we were not part of the herd mentality—not abjugating [???] anyone, merely stating a position of choice. John and John.
HS: So Philly Joe Jones and Eric Dolphy were the ones who welcomed you to New York?
WD: Well, Philly Joe I knew from Philly [i.e., Philadelphia]. Eric I ran into when I went to the West Coast, and we had a nice relationship. When I performed in Los Angeles, Eric used to sit with my wife most of the time, just about nightly. So I knew Eric from Los Angeles, but Philly Joe was the one that told the people at Prestige about me, and that was the beginning of that relationship, Prestige and myself. That’s Eric and Philly.
HS: Can you tell me about “To My Queen”? It seems like that record was a real breakthrough for you.
WD: Well, there is a way to talk about a person that you find ineffable through music, and my queen [Dickerson’s wife, Liz], being that ineffable person, music was the way that I could express those very beautiful, poignant, intellectual, brilliant, beautiful sides of her. So therefore it couldn’t fall in the realm of most songs or most compositions in the genre but had to escape those restrictions in order to exemplify her. And it doing so, it did open up a new vista of explorations, followed later by several not-to-be-mentioned musicians. It was a very, very happy experience, and I go back to that periodically. I return to that periodically, restating that which is ongoing in our relationship, which is forever.
The individuals that I chose for that outing knew my queen, and their artistic projections spoke of that. Andrew Hill: beautiful projections. George Tucker [sighs]: a rock, sensitive. And of course Andrew [Cyrille]: flourishings, nuances, bracketing the different motifs; he was awesome, and remains to this day, as does Andrew Hill. Two awesome, creative musicians. I don’t consider them musicians; I consider them artists in the highest sense. They’ve surpassed that category, “musicians.” Periodically those are the individuals I miss because now I do more, just about exclusively, solo performances, which by the way that’s what John Dennis did after his stint in New York, after his stint with Max and Mingus. He didn’t care any more for the New York scene. And if you listen to that album which is now a CD, you will understand why. The album that he made with Max Roach and Charlie Mingus, it was originally on the label created by Max and Mingus called Debut, that was the label, and if you listen to that, you’ll understand more and share in his wizardry. After that, solo performances exclusively, John, which I enjoy, solo performances—free and unfettered, initiated by To My Queen; I think that was the subject; that was the premise of this particular theme.
HS: It seems like you and Sun Ra had a lot in common philosophically.
WD: Philosophically we had nothing in common [laughs], strangely enough; that’s why I enjoyed his company. No, we didn’t. I was the reason why he made certain changes in his surroundings at my suggestion, but I enjoyed what he was about, and therein was the camaraderie. Sun Ra was a teacher, and sometimes teachers need to be fed other than what they teach; that’s where I came in. That’s why I used Sun Ra on several of my recordings. He did a marvelous job; I wanted that difference; I wanted that uniqueness that he brought to the table.
The sad aspects of the journeys of the individuals that we speak about I don’t discuss because I negate that from the ether that surrounds me. That’s not compatible with my cosmic surroundings; therefore, it has no place in my mind or my speech patterns except to say that it did exist. I deal exclusively with the beauty of the person and the person’s artistic projections.
See these are themes; these are motifs that we’re talking about. This is all part of a performance. As we discuss things, these are themes; these are motifs. That’s what life is about. Let me share something: [reads] “Consider the seemingly infinite number of ordinary conscious beings wielding power throughout the rational civilizations, existing among the universes - plural. Most of those conscious beings have the power to create far beyond any imagined creations of a mystical god, and unlike the miracles of a made-up god, conscious beings’ creations are real, accomplished naturally within the laws of physics. Each such conscious being, for example, has the power to create an endless number of universes from an endless number of universe-containing black holes existing at every space-time point throughout eternity. Even so, most of those conscious beings have technologically and economically advanced so far that they have long ago in their illustrious forgotten histories abandoned the creation of universes as an inefficient, primitive activity.” Motif number three.
Now we’re beginning to see where our power lies. Now we understand why we’re not one of the mass. Now we better understand our inescapable uniqueness. Now we better understand the circuitous route we have chosen. Now we better understand the awesome powers that each person has. Some are consciously aware of that power while others are not, but all have that power; all are born with that power, but because of the system that they’re born under, that power is usurped, negated, and they are taken on another route. Many never access it- the power that is theirs, the creativity that is theirs, the beauty that is theirs, the geniuses that they are. Computer technology? Ten-thousand units of information density per inch. Human brain? One-hundred-thousand units of information density per inch. Central nervous system? Approximately one-hundred-billion cells, which means you have the capacity to store all of the information in the world today with space left over. Fact and honesty liberates you from the confines of the system. Oh, what a genius you are! That’s motif number ten.
HS: I think I lost count!
WD: They all intertwine, like the music; that’s what they are. That’s where the music that comes forth; that’s what it’s about. Some say, “In the beginning...”. That always stirs a bit of curiosity in me: “In the beginning....” That’s interesting. Existence. Well, existence is axiomatic; existence has always existed. Hmmm... Existence has always co-existed with human consciousness. Hmmm... But they said, “In the beginning...,” but what I just said... Non-linear, far-from-equilibrium situations bifurcate into potentially endless fractals in any finite space. This process self-organizes into patterns of near-perfect order, reaching over potentially limitless distances. Thus evolves not only the cosmos and life itself, but all productive work, creative thinking, and limitless knowledge. “Oh, there’s a tie-in to what you just said.” Of course they all dovetail; that’s a part of the infinite flow.
“Gee whiz, I haven’t heard you in New York lately; I really would like to hear you play, Walt.”
“Are you reading this interview?”
“Yes.”
“Then you’re hearing me play. Take a listen.”
“Yeah, Walt, but I’d like to hear you play-play.”
“Just give a call; that can be arranged.”
Next.
HS: You mean you would play?
WD: Am I playing?
HS: I’m sure you’ve been asked to come to New York to play...
WD: Oh, I do have restrictions; you’re right. I do have restrictions; yes, I have. I’ve been asked. No clubs, no smoke environment. Concert hall? Fine. Simple. I’ve seen too many suffer from it- various maladies due to those environments- smoke-filled. It’s quite a workout performing. You do take in what is around you in great amounts, and it does have an effect. I care not to expose my body or mind to those things that are going to be detrimental to my body and mind- my being. A home can be very spartan. The people [are] who make it a beautiful affair; that’s all that’s necessary. And I’d be in New York to perform in a New York minute.
HS: So it could be a private environment?
WD: Private? Public? Like one of the theater complexes that used to be down around Houston. Yeah, they have many of them in New York, those venues. That is where I would perform. Yeah.
HS: I would love to arrange something. Would you perform on campus?
WD: Of course. I performed on campuses many times.
...[discussion of arranging a performance at some point]...
WD: Beautiful day. I just drink it in, just sit out here and drink it in. Usually my spot is right over there- Right over there I take that lounge chair, and I put it all the way back, and I take off everything off but my drawers, and I stretch out in the sun right there. Yeah. My wife says, "Now don't stay there too long," but I love the sun; it seems to pull out all the impurities.
HS: Why were there such long breaks between your recordings?
WD: You would have to ask the recording industry about that. I'm not one to go in search of because I am. Therefore, if you are knowledgable, intelligent, and about the progress of the music, and your position is that of a recording entity, then you should be ringing my phone, giving me a call, or knocking at my door. I mean individuals are put in that position to expose the public to the best. And I realize that they don't do that; they don't go in search of that. It's convenience factor, whatever it is, or a hunger factor that they look for. Whatever; only they would know, but it hasn't and will not ever inhibit my creative flow; that's ongoing. So if they care to give the public something that is life-giving because we must remember the creative flow is a life-giving flow, and those that are about creativity are projecting and injecting life into the recipients, which I think is most noble and wholesome. So, Walt is here, ready to record. Give me a call; let's sit down at the table and do what is best for mankind.
It's so revealing when you say, "Well, this is a wonderful, civilized society, so this should never be overlooked." But unfortunately, since it is overlooked in many instances, then we have to ask ourselves, "Is this a civilized society, or anti-civilization?" Hmmm. Ooohhh! [sarcastically] Now we realize that civilized societies do exist elsewhere, far more advanced than this society that we're exposed to, realizing that where I'm from- Maybe that's the fear. Maybe the creations of one not restricted by this society in one's artistic projections is speaking about a civilized society or a society other than the present that we exist in. Now does that bring about a fear in the upper room? In the glass chamber? ... and facts. Therefore those being exposed to those projections will be awakened. Now that's something to consider when you realize the concerted effort made to avoid sitting down talking to one of that ilk. One has to think about those things and then put it in its proper context, and this counters what the attempt is to suppress which causes stress, which takes one out of the picture, causing all types of maladies, resorting to irrational behavior. But it doesn't have that effect on the ones that we're talking about, that we've discussed because they're aware, they're much too aware of the overall structure of things to allow that to happen to them. Yes, they've seen it happen vicarously, and then they made a concerted effort: "No, not yet; no." So, in all the attempts to do that, to suppress it, it still rises up; periodically, it rises up: a recording over here, a recording over there... It still rises up, but you say, an American company to embrace this, to embrace these unique individuals and say, "Well, this would put America at the forefront, because that would take America forward." Why? Because they don't fall into the pattern of playing what is expected or what has come before? Yeah, I guess there obviously is fear of what it might do to the individuals who hear, really hear the music because all of it has an effect. They realize the detrimental effect that some music has. Well, it has a detrimental effect; it has a beneficial effect as well, and this being what it is, it would have to have a super-beneficial effect on those individuals whose ears behold the music.
So, we're about America progressing; we're about people all over the world progressing because we bring the civilization of the universe to a decadent anti-civilization. I don't have to point out to you, a very intelligent young man, the signs of decadence that abound, the destruction, carnage that abounds, the wars, the greed, man's inhumanity to man that abounds. That is the opposite of what the music is about, and most people are starved for the opposite of those things. Therein lies the power of the music: enlightenment, awareness, uplifting, inspiration, never be the same, clarity, vision, heightened, senses heightened; facts and honesty.
Statements made to me by people in general, by, quote, "classical performers" who comprise a good percentage of my audience in many places, one thing in common they say, this statement: "I never heard jazz like that," which denotes quite an obvious restriction in the projections that they have been exposed to. But you see, when it comes from beyond here [gestures to body], of course it wouldn't be what they're used to; it would be outside of those limitations, those unhealthy boundaries. I say, "No"; my reply would be, "It is music for your mind, not your derriere." "Oh, I see; good." And we end on a jovial note. They're happy with the explanation, and I'm happy that I could give them that explanation. Enlightenment. That's why I think discussions are very helpful concerning the music, not from the technical aspect of the music, but from what the music encompasses, what it consists of, what goes into it.
I think schizophrenia, what a segue, [reads from notes]—“Contrary to common belief, schizophrenia is not a split or a dual personality, which is just one of the many possible symptoms of schizophrenia. Rather, the disease of schizophrenia is the detachment of consciousness from objective reality, which is required to convert one's precious conscious life into a destructive parasite or into a humanoid.” Schizophrenia: Motif #12.
Where we live, where we live presently, not restricted by because one does have the choice. My choice? Not to be restricted.
HS: Why do the Steeplechase records sound so different from your earlier recordings?
WD: That's part of the continuous development of the artist. Segment, segment, segment comprising the infinite flow; that's part of the segment, yes. And for you to be aware of it means that you're at the top of your game in analyzing the segment, segment, segment. Yeah, that's part of the flow, that's part of the creative process, that's part of development, yeah; that's part of the growth patterns. And we're either part of the growth patterns or stagnation becomes the modus operandi. Yeah, that's what it is.
HS: So many musicians make the opposite movement, a creative regression.
WD: Well, anything that goes forward can go in reverse.
HS: Do you notice that pattern in other musicians?
WD: Um, no; no, I haven't noticed that pattern. And if I noticed it, I wouldn't say it. The beauty is in evolving. [to Liz] Hi beautiful! ... Yeah, that takes care of that.
HS: Could you discuss your unique use of vibrato?
WD: Because of the things that I hear, it requires more dexterity to play what I hear, and the overtones, or overlapping of sound is part of what I hear because that's part of the whole. See there's a lot of things going on, and I'm familiar with the speed of sound, or maybe with those things approaching, or maybe with those things equated to, and that's part of my overall persona. So what is done pianistically with ten fingers, I enjoy attempting to do it with two mallets because that's what I hear. So what you hear becomes you quest to produce, and in that quest to produce, you find a way to do it. Again, there's no format on it having been done before, which makes it a unique approach, an innovative approach to the instrument, which is where the intertwining, the overlapping of harmonies come into play because I hear outside of the, quote, "normal progression of things." And in order to do that, to perform that, there are various things that I have to do to access those things, and they come to you.
You see, it's already there, it's already there how to do; the "how-to-do" is already there; the book has already been written, how to do whatever it is you want to do which may sound strange to some people, but I told you previously, your powers that all of us have.
So, when you realize certain things, it opens up the door to other things. Knowledge begets knowlege, compounded; ways to do come to you. You don't have to go to the library; I never went to the library to find out, to the library of music or looked in any particular repertoire to find out. It's there; the book is already there! Open up the book! Written a long time ago. You would understand what I'm saying because of the previous things that we've discussed; you don't have to go outside of one's self for certain information; it's already there. Focus; focus on it! What is it you're looking for? Focus on it! It's there; the answer is there, but we've been taught, "Go over to that station, and pick up the information; go over to that station, and pick up this bit of information." I understand that! I too was a victim of that. That's how I know, from experience. That's how these things come about, the way that I play came about and continues to come about. Remember, creative flow is the infinite flow: limitless, unending, forever. What an awesome realization.
See, in our discussion, or rather, this interview, I'm really telling you about yourself: things for you to think about, meditate on, turn it over, inspect it, doubt it, prove it wrong, and in the process, in the final analysis, one day, I'll see you, and you'll come to me, and you'll give me a big hug, and you'll say, "Thanks, Walt." I'll say, "You're welcome, Hank." That's my purpose for being: disseminate that information which is beneficial to all. It takes one life, one's life and puts it on another level: comprehension, apprehension, not an evasion of, but an apprehension of reality qua reality.
I'm looking forward to my next release. It's already done, whenever they call me.
HS: You’ve recorded something?
WD: I said, "It's already done." It's completed already. I'm not playing everyday for naught; I'm producing; I'm creating everyday. That's why I said, "The next outing is already done." When the call comes, that'll complete it...
HS: Is the vibraphone integral to your concept?
WD: I feel as if the vibes are my natural instrument, yeah. It's just that the things that I hear are outside of the things that had ever been done on the instrument. And it's because of where I draw from, the source that I draw from. No precedent has been set in that area, no reference to that area, and I respect everyone that attempts to play any instrument, and in particular the vibes because I'm aware of the enormous difficulty involved. But because my pursuit has been one of not having been before, the area, and not what is expected, maybe that's the fascination I have with the instrument, with music per se, and in particular with the vibes because the area, the limitless area that I care to become involved in, therein lies my uniqueness, yes.
HS: Do you hear other musicians exploring that limitless idea?
WD: You know, Hank, I had models early on. Then, your quest becomes all-consuming, and you've accessed the unlimited area of creativity. So, occasionally, I'll listen to John and John, relax, in my relaxing moments, occasionally. Other than that, I'm listening to the sound waves, the music that's carried by the ether that surrounds us. See those sounds never leave that are put into the air; it doesn't matter the confines; there's always sounds around us. You hear the sounds now [motions upward to birds singing]. That evokes other sounds; that's audible. Hence, there's a sea of sound. We just don't consciously listen, open up, auditory perception, and hear that sea of sound that we're in consciously. So much to draw on! And that's twenty-four hours! It doesn't matter where you are; so much to draw on. We're so rich; our library is inexhaustible: sounds, infinite sounds.
When I do listen to John and John, I'm saying, "Thanks, buddy; thanks; thanks." Then I realize how much work I have to do. Inspiration point, back to work. Work is pleasure; pleasure is work. Playing is pleasure; pleasure is playing. There all one mass of pleasurable pursuits, so therefore, the hope is that it gives the listener, the listeners, pleasure because that's what it's embedded in; the projections are embedded in pleasure. Pleasurable pursuit. It's a pleasure to learn; it's a pleasure to grow; it's a pleasure to think; utilizing one's faculties to the utmost is a pleasure. Choose the pleasures in life. Whatever you do, make it pleasurable, and life becomes pleasurable. What a way to spend every day. It doesn't matter the task, doesn't matter. I choose happiness; I choose to be happy. This is a pleasure [sips water].
HS: I think your music demands to be heard on a very focused level, with undivided attention; so it cultivates the type of deep listening you’re speaking of.
WD: That's interesting, Hank; that's interesting. And you said it; in your statement you said it: It demands to be heard. That's it. You can think that you're not hearing it, ok. Sometimes, you know, you might have a young lady, you might go out to listen, you might have a date, say, "Let's go hear some music." Maybe she's not aware of the music. Maybe she's aware of the music per se, but she hadn't heard Walt, and heretofore, you go out, you have a cocktail or two, you listen; what you're doing while you're listening is you have your periods of conversation. Understandable; that's the usual. But, when you go out to hear Walt, something happens; there is no conversation, only periodical, only periods of making a statement, one to another, concerning music, what's happening with the individual concerning the music, how it is affecting the person with regards to the music. So, then the music is demanding, and it's also all-encompassing, so that after that performance the two of you have a lot to talk about, but it isn't usual, how you usually come away from a performance and what you usually speak about after a performance; yes. And that's the beauty in it, hopefully more stimulating, and maybe you remember some things, maybe you feel some things that you haven't felt. And it wasn't a meter thing—tick, tick, tick, tick, tick—it wasn't a meter thing; it wasn't a groove thing, but there was a stirring of the emotions on another level, and this hadn't been invoked before. It's what I've been able to gather from the remarks brought to me.
I know some things of a very personal nature have been told to my wife by women concerning what was happening to them while they were listening to the music, which I found very interesting. [laughs] But so be it; it was good, or wonderful. What an experience: the power of the music. I know it has allowed me to focus in a very positive area.
I understand the categorization of music. If you care to categorize a music, I could hear, irreversibly, but I really don't adhere to categories at all. I see things in their totality, not in their segmented manner that man has superimposed upon them. "Did you like the music?" "Fine." That's all that's necessary, but I understand why. But on another level, as you and I talk, again, it should be part of the educational process, but unfortunately, it isn't, which again falls into the category of limiting, limiting unfairly.
But then again, having lived in many countries, I don't even adhere to that; I don't subscribe to that: this country, that country. In our travels, my wife and myself—because I never travel alone; my wife is always with me—we found beautiful people everywhere, and we've been guests in the homes of many people. When our children were younger, this [backyard] used to look like a U.N., children from many nations in the summertime coming to visit and stay with us and our children; that's how they grew up. This enriches one's life oustide of the cubicle of their, quote, "country" or "community." I don't see lines: "these people, those people"; I don't see lines; I know better than that. Again, the superimposition by man, creating lines of differences where no differences in reality actually exist. These divisions don't exist in the civilization of the universe which periodically tries to come here and is here in the presence of some of us.
long time, no post, but i've been cooking up this new feature, "In Full."
basically "In Full" will consist of unedited interview transcripts. over the years, i've spoken with many musicians for various outlets (Time Out New York, Signal to Noise, Jazz Times, WKCR, etc.). one thing i've always regretted is how much of these conversations i have to abandon when the story in question finally goes to press.
i realized that i had a ton of these transcripts archived and that it might be fun/informative to publish them in full on this blog. so here we are. the archive includes talks with everyone from Rashied Ali to Zach Hill of Hella, Steve Lacy to Mick Barr of Orthrelm. so please stay tuned for future installments.
for this kick-off edition of "In Full," the choice was a no-brainer. four years ago, in June of '03, i spent an afternoon with the vibraphonist Walt Dickerson, who is quite simply one of the most intense people i've ever conversed with. if you're not familiar with Dickerson, he made a few straight-ahead hard-boppish discs in the early '60s, and then a fairly out-there one called "To My Queen" (which featured early appearances from Andrew Hill and Andrew Cyrille). years of silence followed, and then in the late '70s, Dickerson re-emerged playing some extremely ethereal and gorgeous free jazz, released on an incredible series of Steeplechase LPs. after that, there was one record for Soul Note in '82 and then nothing since.
in 2003, i did a piece on Andrew Cyrille for All About Jazz and we got to talking about Walt. according to Cyrille, he was living in a suburb of Philly and was easily reachable by phone. i arranged to do a story on Dickerson for Jazz Times, called him up and then paid him a visit soon after. i had an incredible time and, as you'll read, came away thinking that i was actually going to be able to arrange some new recordings or performances for Dickerson. but it was not to be: he never returned any of my follow-up correspondence, and to my knowledge, he never even saw the piece that i published in Jazz Times. i've tried several times to get back in touch, but to no avail. at least i have this document of an incredible afternoon.
for more Walt info, please check Damon Short's database. there was an earlier interview with him in the webzine One Final Note, but it seems to have gone offline. as far as i know, my talk w/ Dickerson is the longest one currently on record. it goes without saying that if anyone knows Walt's whereabouts, please urge him to get in touch. as you'll read, he's truly an amazing thinker, both musically and philosophically. without further ado, here's part one of our talk. (i've done my best to comb the transcript for typos, but please let me know if i've overlooked anything...)
*****
Walt Dickerson Interview [part two can be found here]
near Philadelphia, PA; 6/29/03
HS: So you’re from Philadelphia?
WD: Philadelphia, yes, place of birth.
HS: And you were born...
WD: Obviously [laughs]. I engage in a bit of levity from time to time; that makes it very wholesome. I don’t really adhere to dates. To get caught up in the chronological aspect of things over a period of time can have a detrimental effect on the mind and the body, thinking in such a restricted area as the chronological factor or that mode. Since yesterday and tomorrow are today on the space-timeline of infinity, that helps me to remain free and unfettered. So that’s my response to “When?”
I’ve seen some things happen to many people that were caught up in the chronological aspect of things: “This is supposed to happen at a certain point in your life. That is supposed to happen at a certain point in your life.” Part of what makes that happen is that belief that it should happen at that point in one’s life. There again one brings it on one’s self because of choice; the choice is believing in that chronological aspect of things. So I remain ageless; beautiful dynamic, vital and strong.
HS: You’ve said that two of your biggest influences were “The Two Johns,” Dennis and Coltrane. Can you tell me about your relationships with them?
WD: Well we came up in the same era, the same vicinity. We shared thoughts about life, which cannot be separated from our musical projections. What you hear in the musical projections are really our view and study of life, and we had tremendous interchange. The interchange was heaviest between John Dennis and myself; we were inseparable coming up, like the inseparable twins as such. He was allowed to create when he came to our house; he could not create the music that he desired to create in his house because of the restrictions leveled by his, quote [finger quotes], “religious” parents. My parents were religious also, but they loved music. My mother was a pianist; my father sang in a choir. And my mother always encouraged John and myself, and he would play for her and she enjoyed it tremendously. John also had a photographic mind, very capable of also doing three things simultaneously. As so often happens in America, his genius did not yield the fruits that it should have.
Trane, we discussed things a lot, and the discussions were very thought-provoking; they stayed mainly in the musical sphere: things we could do, superimpositions in particular. Because this was not embraced by the main cadre of musicians. They called it [finger quotes] “safe ground”; they’d rather be on safe ground. For some reason even early on, to me that was very restricting because I heard things outside of, quote, safe ground, beautiful things that were even against some of the things that were taught in the universities, as far as musical projections were concerned. So sometimes at first, you would venture and then you would withdraw from that area; when you were aware that you were there, you would withdraw. But while you were there, it was so enjoyable, and the only reason you withdrew was because the teachings, the Western teachings that we were exposed to in the university, conservatory, we realized later how restricting some of these tenets were. I had nothing but the greatest of admiration, love and respect for the genius of John and John. And I realized later that we were not part of the herd mentality—not abjugating [???] anyone, merely stating a position of choice. John and John.
HS: So Philly Joe Jones and Eric Dolphy were the ones who welcomed you to New York?
WD: Well, Philly Joe I knew from Philly [i.e., Philadelphia]. Eric I ran into when I went to the West Coast, and we had a nice relationship. When I performed in Los Angeles, Eric used to sit with my wife most of the time, just about nightly. So I knew Eric from Los Angeles, but Philly Joe was the one that told the people at Prestige about me, and that was the beginning of that relationship, Prestige and myself. That’s Eric and Philly.
HS: Can you tell me about “To My Queen”? It seems like that record was a real breakthrough for you.
WD: Well, there is a way to talk about a person that you find ineffable through music, and my queen [Dickerson’s wife, Liz], being that ineffable person, music was the way that I could express those very beautiful, poignant, intellectual, brilliant, beautiful sides of her. So therefore it couldn’t fall in the realm of most songs or most compositions in the genre but had to escape those restrictions in order to exemplify her. And it doing so, it did open up a new vista of explorations, followed later by several not-to-be-mentioned musicians. It was a very, very happy experience, and I go back to that periodically. I return to that periodically, restating that which is ongoing in our relationship, which is forever.
The individuals that I chose for that outing knew my queen, and their artistic projections spoke of that. Andrew Hill: beautiful projections. George Tucker [sighs]: a rock, sensitive. And of course Andrew [Cyrille]: flourishings, nuances, bracketing the different motifs; he was awesome, and remains to this day, as does Andrew Hill. Two awesome, creative musicians. I don’t consider them musicians; I consider them artists in the highest sense. They’ve surpassed that category, “musicians.” Periodically those are the individuals I miss because now I do more, just about exclusively, solo performances, which by the way that’s what John Dennis did after his stint in New York, after his stint with Max and Mingus. He didn’t care any more for the New York scene. And if you listen to that album which is now a CD, you will understand why. The album that he made with Max Roach and Charlie Mingus, it was originally on the label created by Max and Mingus called Debut, that was the label, and if you listen to that, you’ll understand more and share in his wizardry. After that, solo performances exclusively, John, which I enjoy, solo performances—free and unfettered, initiated by To My Queen; I think that was the subject; that was the premise of this particular theme.
HS: It seems like you and Sun Ra had a lot in common philosophically.
WD: Philosophically we had nothing in common [laughs], strangely enough; that’s why I enjoyed his company. No, we didn’t. I was the reason why he made certain changes in his surroundings at my suggestion, but I enjoyed what he was about, and therein was the camaraderie. Sun Ra was a teacher, and sometimes teachers need to be fed other than what they teach; that’s where I came in. That’s why I used Sun Ra on several of my recordings. He did a marvelous job; I wanted that difference; I wanted that uniqueness that he brought to the table.
The sad aspects of the journeys of the individuals that we speak about I don’t discuss because I negate that from the ether that surrounds me. That’s not compatible with my cosmic surroundings; therefore, it has no place in my mind or my speech patterns except to say that it did exist. I deal exclusively with the beauty of the person and the person’s artistic projections.
See these are themes; these are motifs that we’re talking about. This is all part of a performance. As we discuss things, these are themes; these are motifs. That’s what life is about. Let me share something: [reads] “Consider the seemingly infinite number of ordinary conscious beings wielding power throughout the rational civilizations, existing among the universes - plural. Most of those conscious beings have the power to create far beyond any imagined creations of a mystical god, and unlike the miracles of a made-up god, conscious beings’ creations are real, accomplished naturally within the laws of physics. Each such conscious being, for example, has the power to create an endless number of universes from an endless number of universe-containing black holes existing at every space-time point throughout eternity. Even so, most of those conscious beings have technologically and economically advanced so far that they have long ago in their illustrious forgotten histories abandoned the creation of universes as an inefficient, primitive activity.” Motif number three.
Now we’re beginning to see where our power lies. Now we understand why we’re not one of the mass. Now we better understand our inescapable uniqueness. Now we better understand the circuitous route we have chosen. Now we better understand the awesome powers that each person has. Some are consciously aware of that power while others are not, but all have that power; all are born with that power, but because of the system that they’re born under, that power is usurped, negated, and they are taken on another route. Many never access it- the power that is theirs, the creativity that is theirs, the beauty that is theirs, the geniuses that they are. Computer technology? Ten-thousand units of information density per inch. Human brain? One-hundred-thousand units of information density per inch. Central nervous system? Approximately one-hundred-billion cells, which means you have the capacity to store all of the information in the world today with space left over. Fact and honesty liberates you from the confines of the system. Oh, what a genius you are! That’s motif number ten.
HS: I think I lost count!
WD: They all intertwine, like the music; that’s what they are. That’s where the music that comes forth; that’s what it’s about. Some say, “In the beginning...”. That always stirs a bit of curiosity in me: “In the beginning....” That’s interesting. Existence. Well, existence is axiomatic; existence has always existed. Hmmm... Existence has always co-existed with human consciousness. Hmmm... But they said, “In the beginning...,” but what I just said... Non-linear, far-from-equilibrium situations bifurcate into potentially endless fractals in any finite space. This process self-organizes into patterns of near-perfect order, reaching over potentially limitless distances. Thus evolves not only the cosmos and life itself, but all productive work, creative thinking, and limitless knowledge. “Oh, there’s a tie-in to what you just said.” Of course they all dovetail; that’s a part of the infinite flow.
“Gee whiz, I haven’t heard you in New York lately; I really would like to hear you play, Walt.”
“Are you reading this interview?”
“Yes.”
“Then you’re hearing me play. Take a listen.”
“Yeah, Walt, but I’d like to hear you play-play.”
“Just give a call; that can be arranged.”
Next.
HS: You mean you would play?
WD: Am I playing?
HS: I’m sure you’ve been asked to come to New York to play...
WD: Oh, I do have restrictions; you’re right. I do have restrictions; yes, I have. I’ve been asked. No clubs, no smoke environment. Concert hall? Fine. Simple. I’ve seen too many suffer from it- various maladies due to those environments- smoke-filled. It’s quite a workout performing. You do take in what is around you in great amounts, and it does have an effect. I care not to expose my body or mind to those things that are going to be detrimental to my body and mind- my being. A home can be very spartan. The people [are] who make it a beautiful affair; that’s all that’s necessary. And I’d be in New York to perform in a New York minute.
HS: So it could be a private environment?
WD: Private? Public? Like one of the theater complexes that used to be down around Houston. Yeah, they have many of them in New York, those venues. That is where I would perform. Yeah.
HS: I would love to arrange something. Would you perform on campus?
WD: Of course. I performed on campuses many times.
...[discussion of arranging a performance at some point]...
WD: Beautiful day. I just drink it in, just sit out here and drink it in. Usually my spot is right over there- Right over there I take that lounge chair, and I put it all the way back, and I take off everything off but my drawers, and I stretch out in the sun right there. Yeah. My wife says, "Now don't stay there too long," but I love the sun; it seems to pull out all the impurities.
HS: Why were there such long breaks between your recordings?
WD: You would have to ask the recording industry about that. I'm not one to go in search of because I am. Therefore, if you are knowledgable, intelligent, and about the progress of the music, and your position is that of a recording entity, then you should be ringing my phone, giving me a call, or knocking at my door. I mean individuals are put in that position to expose the public to the best. And I realize that they don't do that; they don't go in search of that. It's convenience factor, whatever it is, or a hunger factor that they look for. Whatever; only they would know, but it hasn't and will not ever inhibit my creative flow; that's ongoing. So if they care to give the public something that is life-giving because we must remember the creative flow is a life-giving flow, and those that are about creativity are projecting and injecting life into the recipients, which I think is most noble and wholesome. So, Walt is here, ready to record. Give me a call; let's sit down at the table and do what is best for mankind.
It's so revealing when you say, "Well, this is a wonderful, civilized society, so this should never be overlooked." But unfortunately, since it is overlooked in many instances, then we have to ask ourselves, "Is this a civilized society, or anti-civilization?" Hmmm. Ooohhh! [sarcastically] Now we realize that civilized societies do exist elsewhere, far more advanced than this society that we're exposed to, realizing that where I'm from- Maybe that's the fear. Maybe the creations of one not restricted by this society in one's artistic projections is speaking about a civilized society or a society other than the present that we exist in. Now does that bring about a fear in the upper room? In the glass chamber? ... and facts. Therefore those being exposed to those projections will be awakened. Now that's something to consider when you realize the concerted effort made to avoid sitting down talking to one of that ilk. One has to think about those things and then put it in its proper context, and this counters what the attempt is to suppress which causes stress, which takes one out of the picture, causing all types of maladies, resorting to irrational behavior. But it doesn't have that effect on the ones that we're talking about, that we've discussed because they're aware, they're much too aware of the overall structure of things to allow that to happen to them. Yes, they've seen it happen vicarously, and then they made a concerted effort: "No, not yet; no." So, in all the attempts to do that, to suppress it, it still rises up; periodically, it rises up: a recording over here, a recording over there... It still rises up, but you say, an American company to embrace this, to embrace these unique individuals and say, "Well, this would put America at the forefront, because that would take America forward." Why? Because they don't fall into the pattern of playing what is expected or what has come before? Yeah, I guess there obviously is fear of what it might do to the individuals who hear, really hear the music because all of it has an effect. They realize the detrimental effect that some music has. Well, it has a detrimental effect; it has a beneficial effect as well, and this being what it is, it would have to have a super-beneficial effect on those individuals whose ears behold the music.
So, we're about America progressing; we're about people all over the world progressing because we bring the civilization of the universe to a decadent anti-civilization. I don't have to point out to you, a very intelligent young man, the signs of decadence that abound, the destruction, carnage that abounds, the wars, the greed, man's inhumanity to man that abounds. That is the opposite of what the music is about, and most people are starved for the opposite of those things. Therein lies the power of the music: enlightenment, awareness, uplifting, inspiration, never be the same, clarity, vision, heightened, senses heightened; facts and honesty.
Statements made to me by people in general, by, quote, "classical performers" who comprise a good percentage of my audience in many places, one thing in common they say, this statement: "I never heard jazz like that," which denotes quite an obvious restriction in the projections that they have been exposed to. But you see, when it comes from beyond here [gestures to body], of course it wouldn't be what they're used to; it would be outside of those limitations, those unhealthy boundaries. I say, "No"; my reply would be, "It is music for your mind, not your derriere." "Oh, I see; good." And we end on a jovial note. They're happy with the explanation, and I'm happy that I could give them that explanation. Enlightenment. That's why I think discussions are very helpful concerning the music, not from the technical aspect of the music, but from what the music encompasses, what it consists of, what goes into it.
I think schizophrenia, what a segue, [reads from notes]—“Contrary to common belief, schizophrenia is not a split or a dual personality, which is just one of the many possible symptoms of schizophrenia. Rather, the disease of schizophrenia is the detachment of consciousness from objective reality, which is required to convert one's precious conscious life into a destructive parasite or into a humanoid.” Schizophrenia: Motif #12.
Where we live, where we live presently, not restricted by because one does have the choice. My choice? Not to be restricted.
HS: Why do the Steeplechase records sound so different from your earlier recordings?
WD: That's part of the continuous development of the artist. Segment, segment, segment comprising the infinite flow; that's part of the segment, yes. And for you to be aware of it means that you're at the top of your game in analyzing the segment, segment, segment. Yeah, that's part of the flow, that's part of the creative process, that's part of development, yeah; that's part of the growth patterns. And we're either part of the growth patterns or stagnation becomes the modus operandi. Yeah, that's what it is.
HS: So many musicians make the opposite movement, a creative regression.
WD: Well, anything that goes forward can go in reverse.
HS: Do you notice that pattern in other musicians?
WD: Um, no; no, I haven't noticed that pattern. And if I noticed it, I wouldn't say it. The beauty is in evolving. [to Liz] Hi beautiful! ... Yeah, that takes care of that.
HS: Could you discuss your unique use of vibrato?
WD: Because of the things that I hear, it requires more dexterity to play what I hear, and the overtones, or overlapping of sound is part of what I hear because that's part of the whole. See there's a lot of things going on, and I'm familiar with the speed of sound, or maybe with those things approaching, or maybe with those things equated to, and that's part of my overall persona. So what is done pianistically with ten fingers, I enjoy attempting to do it with two mallets because that's what I hear. So what you hear becomes you quest to produce, and in that quest to produce, you find a way to do it. Again, there's no format on it having been done before, which makes it a unique approach, an innovative approach to the instrument, which is where the intertwining, the overlapping of harmonies come into play because I hear outside of the, quote, "normal progression of things." And in order to do that, to perform that, there are various things that I have to do to access those things, and they come to you.
You see, it's already there, it's already there how to do; the "how-to-do" is already there; the book has already been written, how to do whatever it is you want to do which may sound strange to some people, but I told you previously, your powers that all of us have.
So, when you realize certain things, it opens up the door to other things. Knowledge begets knowlege, compounded; ways to do come to you. You don't have to go to the library; I never went to the library to find out, to the library of music or looked in any particular repertoire to find out. It's there; the book is already there! Open up the book! Written a long time ago. You would understand what I'm saying because of the previous things that we've discussed; you don't have to go outside of one's self for certain information; it's already there. Focus; focus on it! What is it you're looking for? Focus on it! It's there; the answer is there, but we've been taught, "Go over to that station, and pick up the information; go over to that station, and pick up this bit of information." I understand that! I too was a victim of that. That's how I know, from experience. That's how these things come about, the way that I play came about and continues to come about. Remember, creative flow is the infinite flow: limitless, unending, forever. What an awesome realization.
See, in our discussion, or rather, this interview, I'm really telling you about yourself: things for you to think about, meditate on, turn it over, inspect it, doubt it, prove it wrong, and in the process, in the final analysis, one day, I'll see you, and you'll come to me, and you'll give me a big hug, and you'll say, "Thanks, Walt." I'll say, "You're welcome, Hank." That's my purpose for being: disseminate that information which is beneficial to all. It takes one life, one's life and puts it on another level: comprehension, apprehension, not an evasion of, but an apprehension of reality qua reality.
I'm looking forward to my next release. It's already done, whenever they call me.
HS: You’ve recorded something?
WD: I said, "It's already done." It's completed already. I'm not playing everyday for naught; I'm producing; I'm creating everyday. That's why I said, "The next outing is already done." When the call comes, that'll complete it...
HS: Is the vibraphone integral to your concept?
WD: I feel as if the vibes are my natural instrument, yeah. It's just that the things that I hear are outside of the things that had ever been done on the instrument. And it's because of where I draw from, the source that I draw from. No precedent has been set in that area, no reference to that area, and I respect everyone that attempts to play any instrument, and in particular the vibes because I'm aware of the enormous difficulty involved. But because my pursuit has been one of not having been before, the area, and not what is expected, maybe that's the fascination I have with the instrument, with music per se, and in particular with the vibes because the area, the limitless area that I care to become involved in, therein lies my uniqueness, yes.
HS: Do you hear other musicians exploring that limitless idea?
WD: You know, Hank, I had models early on. Then, your quest becomes all-consuming, and you've accessed the unlimited area of creativity. So, occasionally, I'll listen to John and John, relax, in my relaxing moments, occasionally. Other than that, I'm listening to the sound waves, the music that's carried by the ether that surrounds us. See those sounds never leave that are put into the air; it doesn't matter the confines; there's always sounds around us. You hear the sounds now [motions upward to birds singing]. That evokes other sounds; that's audible. Hence, there's a sea of sound. We just don't consciously listen, open up, auditory perception, and hear that sea of sound that we're in consciously. So much to draw on! And that's twenty-four hours! It doesn't matter where you are; so much to draw on. We're so rich; our library is inexhaustible: sounds, infinite sounds.
When I do listen to John and John, I'm saying, "Thanks, buddy; thanks; thanks." Then I realize how much work I have to do. Inspiration point, back to work. Work is pleasure; pleasure is work. Playing is pleasure; pleasure is playing. There all one mass of pleasurable pursuits, so therefore, the hope is that it gives the listener, the listeners, pleasure because that's what it's embedded in; the projections are embedded in pleasure. Pleasurable pursuit. It's a pleasure to learn; it's a pleasure to grow; it's a pleasure to think; utilizing one's faculties to the utmost is a pleasure. Choose the pleasures in life. Whatever you do, make it pleasurable, and life becomes pleasurable. What a way to spend every day. It doesn't matter the task, doesn't matter. I choose happiness; I choose to be happy. This is a pleasure [sips water].
HS: I think your music demands to be heard on a very focused level, with undivided attention; so it cultivates the type of deep listening you’re speaking of.
WD: That's interesting, Hank; that's interesting. And you said it; in your statement you said it: It demands to be heard. That's it. You can think that you're not hearing it, ok. Sometimes, you know, you might have a young lady, you might go out to listen, you might have a date, say, "Let's go hear some music." Maybe she's not aware of the music. Maybe she's aware of the music per se, but she hadn't heard Walt, and heretofore, you go out, you have a cocktail or two, you listen; what you're doing while you're listening is you have your periods of conversation. Understandable; that's the usual. But, when you go out to hear Walt, something happens; there is no conversation, only periodical, only periods of making a statement, one to another, concerning music, what's happening with the individual concerning the music, how it is affecting the person with regards to the music. So, then the music is demanding, and it's also all-encompassing, so that after that performance the two of you have a lot to talk about, but it isn't usual, how you usually come away from a performance and what you usually speak about after a performance; yes. And that's the beauty in it, hopefully more stimulating, and maybe you remember some things, maybe you feel some things that you haven't felt. And it wasn't a meter thing—tick, tick, tick, tick, tick—it wasn't a meter thing; it wasn't a groove thing, but there was a stirring of the emotions on another level, and this hadn't been invoked before. It's what I've been able to gather from the remarks brought to me.
I know some things of a very personal nature have been told to my wife by women concerning what was happening to them while they were listening to the music, which I found very interesting. [laughs] But so be it; it was good, or wonderful. What an experience: the power of the music. I know it has allowed me to focus in a very positive area.
I understand the categorization of music. If you care to categorize a music, I could hear, irreversibly, but I really don't adhere to categories at all. I see things in their totality, not in their segmented manner that man has superimposed upon them. "Did you like the music?" "Fine." That's all that's necessary, but I understand why. But on another level, as you and I talk, again, it should be part of the educational process, but unfortunately, it isn't, which again falls into the category of limiting, limiting unfairly.
But then again, having lived in many countries, I don't even adhere to that; I don't subscribe to that: this country, that country. In our travels, my wife and myself—because I never travel alone; my wife is always with me—we found beautiful people everywhere, and we've been guests in the homes of many people. When our children were younger, this [backyard] used to look like a U.N., children from many nations in the summertime coming to visit and stay with us and our children; that's how they grew up. This enriches one's life oustide of the cubicle of their, quote, "country" or "community." I don't see lines: "these people, those people"; I don't see lines; I know better than that. Again, the superimposition by man, creating lines of differences where no differences in reality actually exist. These divisions don't exist in the civilization of the universe which periodically tries to come here and is here in the presence of some of us.
And we've been places, very posh restaurants, elsewhere (that's how I state it sometimes when we get outside of that context: "elsewhere"). When the beautiful people that we were guests of in their homes would say to us, "Walt, Liz, [let me] show you something," and we'd say, "What?" This happened several times, in various places. "We're going to show you; when an American walks through that door, we're going to show you the difference. See if you can pick them out when they come through that door; it's a game." And invariably, you could pick them out when they came through the door: attitude, pompous, too-grating mannerism, acrimonious tongue [sighs]. We never had a problem with anybody; anywhere in another country did we ever have a problem.
So there were times when it would be discussed, the mental attitude: attitude, attitude. Those that are in touch with the civilization of the universe are cognizant of this. And there have been artists—artists, not musicians; artists—that have been in touch with the civilization of the universe, and we know by their projections that they have been in touch and are in touch. Better stated, one of their kind, we're aware of the institutions and the disservice that they have done to mankind on this planet, and coming to rectify the situation is a tremendous task; but then that is our duty, and we perform it with grace and honor in the face of constant opposition which does nothing but crystallize what we're about.
These are the things that in my discussions with students in particular I talk about, I discuss with them. That's why there's always such a variance in an audience that will come to hear me perform, a variance in all areas, they would say; a variance. I remember a concert at a church in New York where the promoters said, "I never saw this before in my life." There were over fifty bikers there, leather-wearing bikers. After which, they asked for a meeting with me; I obliged. They procured a room outside of the auditorium for us to meet; it was one of the most interesting meetings I've ever had. I didn't know I had fans that were bikers; you see, I didn't see them any differently than anybody else; they were people just to me. So therefore, "Let's talk; let's communicate; let's exchange views; let's get into each others' heads; let's enjoy each others' company." And that we did, the wife and myself; we had a ball. Unusual? Yes. Different? Yes. A ball? Yes. [laughter].
Life's experiences are something else, things of beauty that you never forget, forever. And it goes on and on with, as they say, "different groups" again; "You were with these people?" "You were with those people?" This is how others view meeting. Or, "You were with those people?!," "You were with those-?" Ahhh, please, please, please; people are people; let's get together, c'mon! [laughs] When will the madness cease? "Ok, we're doing our best, we're doing all we can to eradicate the madness" because that's all it is: madness. Irrationality; irrationality. Oooh; aaahhh: perceiving that group as that group as that... Irrationality, a prime example. Let me see; let me see; let, me, see. Aaahhh.
Motif number twenty: [reads] “What does it do? Irrationality. Today in our young, earth-bound civilizations, the eventually fatal disease of irrationality is eradicating the future of all human beings.” Hmmm... "Would you clarify that a bit Walt?" "Sure." Irrationality reduces and eventually stops the accumulation of new knowledge needed to prosper and ultimately to survive. Hmmm... Irrationality does that and more. Irrationally damages and eventually destroys the conscious mechanism for processing and accumulating knowledge. Motif number twenty.
I have no part in it. Honesty and facts are what we're steeped in. I
have no part of irrationality or any of its neighbors; I'm aware of the
lethal effect that it has upon one. Knowing that, we cast it aside; if
someone cares to project it into our space, we just as quickly eject it,
rendering it harmless to us, of non-effect. Not a part of the
civilization of the universe, not akin to in any way. The awareness of
it is quite a beautiful motif; it brings forth a beautiful motif: the
awareness of the irrationality, yeah.
And they build upon each other; one beautiful motif yields another
beautiful motif; that motif in turn yields another beautiful motif, ad
infinitum.
http://darkforcesswing.blogspot.com/2007/07/in-full-1-part-two-walt-dickerson-w.html
Before we get to the continuation of the Dickerson interview, make sure you get over to Jazz e Arredores--one of a seemingly infinite amount of incredible Euro free-jazz blogs--and download "By Myself," a 1977 solo cello album by Abdul Wadud. if you don't know Wadud, he did his most prominent work w/ Julius Hemphill, laying down some serious funk on records like "Dogon A.D." and "Coon Bid'ness."
"By Myself" is a masterpiece, and impossible to find at that. some very out sawing-style frenzy on here for the skronk lovers, but also some seriously folksy, lyrical and steady-grooving stuff. the beauty and range of the instrument really come out, i.e. it's like the best parts of solo double bass and solo acoustic guitar wrapped into one. some of this stuff, esp. the first track, reminds me of Robbie Basho in its raga-like churn. read Wadud's awesome liner notes here.
does anyone know of Wadud's current whereabouts? i had assumed he'd passed away b/c i haven't heard of him playing in quite a while, but i have no real evidence to support that.
*****
without further ado, i present to you part two of the Walt Dickerson interview from 6/29/03. first part is here in case you missed it, and a Dickerson mp3 is here if you're curious.
[some quotes depend heavily on inflection, so if you have trouble deciphering what he's getting at in any particular passage, drop a line and i'll try to paraphrase.]
HS: It seems that your music requires a lot of dexterity. Having never seen you live, I’m curious: Do you move around when you play?
WD: I used to - used to - move. That's they way- That's what I felt, and my feelings would cause me to move, and I would move according to my feelings. What I was playing at the time, and- So they would be varied, my physical movements would be varied according to what I was playing at the time. Over a period of time, the movements became less, less pronounced, and now my movements are usually to get over the instruments; sometimes, some passages cause me to move in a very accelerated fashion to get what I'm reaching for. But my movements are less, and I think that's due to being able to reach or access what it is I hear more easily. As the development of the technique increases or increased, the movement became less; the physical movement became less. Yeah, that's how that whole movement thing was.
HS: You played with a lot of people that are not well known, such as the drummer Jimmi Johnsun and the bassist Andy McKee.
WD: Andy McKee is a fine bassist, and he's around New York now to my knowledge; yeah, he's around New York now, and he came to- The last time I saw Andy was when I performed at the Vanguard in New York, and he came down, and we had a nice time together. As a matter of fact, he brought his bass down; he wanted to play in the worst way, but at the time it wasn't possible. But he was in several of the big bands around New York.
Jimmi Johnsun was a musical drummer, a very musical drummer; he played piano also- very tasty. And he played with several of the New York musicians. Their names escape me now, but at the time, they were among the ones doing it on the scene, and Jimmi Johnsun was a part of that group of very good musicians. [He was] out of Baltimore. I know Jimmi from when I was in school at Morgan State University and Peabody Conservatory, and he had a strong desire to go to Europe, and I fulfilled his burning desire to visit Europe, and he performed excellently.
But then, there was Abdul-Malik who was well known, the bassist who was a cornerstone of Monk's quartet for a good while; we had some interesting excursions. Malik, I enjoyed playing with.
I played with all the musicians that- Benny Golson, out of Philly; I played with them. So, along the way, I played with many of them, but I chose certain individuals when I was in New York for the recordings, individuals that appealed to me at the time; I didn't go according to, you know, who they had played with; it didn't matter to me, no. Their talents, their taste was what persuaded me to choose them; all of them that I chose for my recordings, that's what it was based on. There were those that were with the individuals that one would say- front-line individuals that asked, but I didn't care to have them record with me, yeah. Choice, choices was the reason that I chose them, the individuals that did perform with me. Based on musicality, compatibility, and I liked them as human beings; that has a lot to do with it too.
HS: Henry Grimes has resurfaced recently.
WD: Yes, I heard, I heard. Isn't that wonderful?
HS: Have you been in touch with him?
WD: No, I have not. No, I got the wire [Note: Though Grimes’s story was reported in the music magazine the Wire, this is actually a reference to Dickerson’s personal network of musician friends. It’s explained just below.]—of course I always get the information... by way of the wire, I have connections; I'm well-informed of what's going on just about everywhere because people are in constant contact with me, letting me know what's going on. So, I'm not in a void.
Yeah, I was glad to hear that Henry was back- a very fine bassist. I recall, he was on the West Coast- the information I received was that he was on the West Coast and that he's now back. And I think Reggie [Workman]'s doing his best to assist him on his return. That's what I've heard so far, and I’m glad to hear it; I look forward to hearing some things from Henry, yeah, yeah.
He had a brother that was a tremendous tenor saxophonist, tremendous tenor saxophonist. I recall the Grimes brothers... Oh yeah, he's from Philly... Oh yeah, I chose him [for the Jazz Impressions of Lawrence of Arabia session]; he came right in and did a fantastic job.
HS: Who are the other musicians, besides Andrew Cyrille, who make up "the wire"?
WD: Strangely enough, they're- most of them are PhD's at various universities; constant contact. During the summer, they'll be through; they'll call me, and we'll spend time together- come down, come up, come down, come from the West, come from wherever they are. We'll spend a couple of days going over things. A couple musicians- I won't name them, I won't give up my sources, except for the one that you mentioned.
Yeah, having to do with the educational process they find me aggravating at times, but interesting, is the reason why I guess we're still in contact, [why I've] developed a friendship with them. But there's always a heated debate when they come around, and I find it enjoyable, and they find it enjoyable- refreshing. They need that; they need it; I understand that they need it, so I give it to them! They need it in the worst way, and they love me for giving it to them, getting them out of the doldrums of academia.
I understand it's a job, a job, as most of these institutional things are, but don't become enamored with it, you know, like, it is what it isn't. See it for what it is, and do your job. Some find it increasingly difficult; they become rather rebellious as far as the curriculum is concerned, and I've been accused of that- through conversation with some of them, and them becoming rather rebellious and wanting to institute certain things in the curriculum that kind of rub the hierarchy the wrong way. And I've been guilty of that, and happily so; it means I'm doing my job. So musically and verbally, which are the same - One and the same; always remember they're one and the same; what one espouses verbally is what you'll hear musically; they're one and the same; but of course that isn't taught in academia, that they're one and the same; they're separate; those two areas are separated. "Now let's talk about the man. We've discussed his music; now let's talk about the man." is the way it goes. Well, don't you know, when you discuss his music, you discuss what he's about; you're discussing what the man stands for; they're one and the same. Then the person gets a better glimpse of what the person is really about when you put the two together as it should be. He's not a separate entity from his projections; they're one and the same. Treat them as such; view them as such, and then you get the complete picture. Isolate them, and you'll get a distorted picture, not complete, subject to your assumptions, which are ninety percent of the time erroneous. Put them together; like in life, you put them together, and you bypass the automatic bicameral processes, and that's the objective: to become conscious to the state whereby you can pass those bicameral processes. That's evolving because they're automatic bicameral processes; that's an automatic process; those are the automatic processes that occur, no thought involved, subject to hallucinatory events; by way of the automatic bicameral process one is subject to that hallucinatory phenomenon, listening to.
Hence, mysticism; hence the formation of institutions to control and dominate the mass by way of various figures put before them.
HS: Are you talking about religion?
WD: [sarcastically] How keen you must be. Of course. Also astro-quantum-particle physics are involved in that, one of the culprits, dealing in cold fusion, low-energy nano-nanotechnology in the search for the fictional, wishful birthplace of our forever-evolving plasmatic universe by way of the Big Bang. Remember what I told you earlier, and you put the pieces together: Starting here, starting here, starting here - that which forever has been. Fact! Honesty. It's a joy. And as you do that, Hank, some interesting facts come up from your storehouse of facts which are already there. As you meditate, focus on these profound things, things that come to you as some would say out of the blue. No, nothing is by chance; everything can be determined [???]. It appears a bit cloudy at first, but then one focuses; the clouding dissipates, and another fact appears on the photoscreen of your mind, an undeniable fact accompanied by honesty; already there, already there waiting for you to access it.
Some revelations appear so clear, I've had occasions, and my wife also, to just embrace each other with joy, sometimes with tears of joy as to how it occurs, how the process works. They ask me, and they'll ask my wife- she usually passes it on to me- "How long have you been married?" they'll ask my wife. She'll say, "Ask Walt." Well, they're usually kind of reluctant if they've ever said anything to me; they usually have their reservations about asking me things, people in general; I don't know why, but I do know why, because my reply is "Forever." "No, no, no" is what they'll say, "I don't mean that." [laughter] And my reply is, "But I do mean that, but you don't understand what my forever encompasses, and simply, it encompasses forever! Now one day when you have time and I have equal time, I'll be glad to sit down with you and share some things with you so as to bring about some clarity in your mind regarding what I meant by the statement 'forever.'" And that's always an amusing point to make, pursuing that question; it always has been very amusing to me, but it is congruent with being ageless, "Oh, but that's right, we haven't talked, or you would begin to put the pieces together." When we can communicate- I mean communicate - we are of the same age; yesterday, today, and tomorrow are today, thus the sameness on the scale of infinity.
HS: I’m curious about other members of your family. One of your compositions is dedicated to a brother who died, right?
WD: [hesitantly, gravely] Yes, yes, we were very close. Service-related; at sea. Hmmm... a smaller craft capsized and went down. We were very close; we had many moments of joy together early on... [He was] older...
As a matter of fact I had two brothers that passed by way of the service, armed forces. There were four of us; two went that route. So when I speak about wars- totally unnecessary. Initiatory force is only valid in self-defense; other than that, it's destructive and value-less. There is no need for that kind of activity; it does not occur in the civilization of the universe- civilizations of the universes; it does not occur. Again, a fact that we are in the anti-civilization. And I hear them speak; I hear the verbiage: what we must do to them, what we must do to them- I hear it. You can't help but hear it; it's so pervasive; we're being inundated by it. And I did my time in that part of the system, the armed forces, strangely enough; so it's not like I'm speaking as an outsider. I went through that, but even then what did I do? I looked at the gun as if it was my enemy. I looked at the rifle that was given to me to do what, to do what? To commit murder to another mother's son and I knew that wasn't right; I knew that wasn't right.
So then, the forces that I later became aware of told me what to do. I did that. So I was assigned to the Seventh Army Symphony- again, playing music – which is located in Stuttgart, Germany. I also toured with my own quartet while in the service, playing music. I discarded the uniform while I was in the service; I wore civilian clothes while performing in the army; I toured extensively; I enjoyed playing music while in the army.
My eldest brother wasn't as fortunate. When he went in, he was shot unfortunately; he lost his little finger on his left hand. He was a fantastic concert violinist; of course that ended his career as a violinist, as you very well know how important that little finger is.
So, that was my excursion through the service and the realization that there had to be a better way for man to deal with man than warfare. No, that's not civil at all; that's not humane at all. Therefore, the music indicates that. It's there; it happens when performing, various thoughts come across one's mind. Sometimes, it happens before you commence to perform; something will be on your mind of that ilk, and whereas I used to try to shake it from my mind, I learned to embrace it and let the thoughts and creative projections coexist which is what's supposed to happen: one answers the other; therefore it's there in the music.
Oh, what a sea of sound [responding to birds chirping?].
HS: Is there a possibility or a desire for collaboration with other musicians in the future?
WD: There's always been requests; I'm always being requested. Requests are always being made: "Let's do; let's do." And I'm not saying that I won't at some point in time; I probably will at some point. I might just do a duo performance with someone, a concert duo performance. I haven't ruled anything out; nothing is etched in stone, so that remains to be seen.
HS: Your duets have been very artful, sparse and meditative. I think you really pioneered something in your duets with Richard Davis and Pierre Dorge that hasn't been pursued by anyone else.
WD: Yes, you're right; I don't know of it having been pursued by anyone else, but there again, that's the beauty in the art form: there's a niche there, a niche there, so many niches to be filled. That's the nature of what we're dealing with. It isn't necessary. If you want that, there it is; if you enjoy that, there it is; if you enjoy that, there it is. So many areas to be filled; we're dealing with an art of creativity at its highest level. When you're dealing with creativity at its highest level, all of the niches can never be filled; there's a niche for everyone, every artist, and it behooves the artist to seek his or her niche, and, as it has been written, that that is the area of greatness. Be that as it may, it's just something that I'm a part of, and it's a part of me; we are the same, one and the same. So, it is with great honor and distinction that I accept that and cherish that uniqueness. Hopefully, it will allow others - and this has happened to hear that, pinch from it, and try to find their own niche; that has happened: many pinches from it, hopefully in route to finding their own niche. Yes; yes; yes.
HS: You seem to want to record and perform.
WD: Oh yeah! Hank, that's my job; that's what I'm here for; that's my love!
HS: Actually I’m here for the same thing. My band played last night in Philadelphia.
WD: Why didn't you tell me? Yeah, why didn't to tell me! Awww, don't do that!
HS: You would have been into checking it out?
WD: Of course I would have. Wow, wow.
HS: Well, it’s sort of a heavy rock band...
WD: It's funny, one time I was performing someplace, and there was a very strong rhythm and blues element at the club, and they were used to some very hard – you know what I’m talking about – the backbeat and so forth; that’s what they were used to. So, I started to play in that area just for the hell of it and the fact that I can, and Andrew [Cyrille] was the drummer, and Andrew picked it up and began to apply the backbeat, and we got into a thing there [laughs]- I never will forget it; we brought the house down with this backbeat, blues excursion, and after it was over, Andrew ran up to me and said, “Damn, Walt, I never knew you could play that shit!” [laughs] It was one of the funniest experiences. I said, “Man, please, don’t you know that’s how you come up, playin’ everything?” You come up playin’ everything… I forget who the other ones [on the gig] were; it was really just Andrew and myself who got what was going on because I think the other two were just shocked; they weren’t even present really; there was just the two of us, you know, into the thing… I was playing the things that I was playing in the Prestige days… It was back then, but I never forgot it. Oh, you never forget that; oh no; never forget it.
Like I said, we came up playing everything; that’s how we came up. We played everything coming through. You name it: singers, the rest of it. Yeah… It brought me to where I am; it was a part of the growth cycle; sure. It’s enriching, and everybody has their own way of coming through; I don’t say, “You should do this, or you should do that;” no, no, no; it’s not for me to say how you should come through; that’s you; you’re building your uniqueness. How you come through? No, I don’t give advice on that; no. “You should do this; you should do that.” No. I can appreciate you for where you are. I don’t care where you are in your growth cycle; I can see where you are, and I can appreciate where you are. See that’s the difference, knowing that that’s a period in time; that’s where he is or she is at this period in time. “Now let me hear; let me hear.” Then you listen to things; you listen to things; you hear things; beautiful, beautiful. And it doesn’t matter where you are on that scale; you would get nothing but encouragement from me. You see, that’s being who we really are. If I can be an inspiration to a person, if I can uplift their spirits, that’s what I’m about. [We] don’t have to be about the same thing, ok? We can go into a blues house and enjoy it, and enjoy them for where they are.
I’m not to say [whether or not rock is valid]; I’m not to say that. I know they’ve attributed some things about it that they used to attribute to the music that I play. Quote: “Awww, what could be any worse than the devil’s music?” And I’m going to turn around and join that mentality by saying derogatory things about what they say is that music? No, you don’t get that from me; please, please. I’m not there; I’m not there at all; I will not join you as you go about abrogating this music or that music; no, I won’t join you there; no. The same thing has been done to me; should I repeat it? Then I haven’t learned. No, no. I want to hear what you have to say. I don’t care where you are. If I happen to be there, or you happen to be in my presence, I want to hear what you have to say, musically and verbally, and then I’m going to pick out nothing but the delightful aspects of what you said or what you played; those are the only things that are going to come from my lips. You see because if that’s all I look for, that’s what I’ll hear, that’s what I’ll see, that’s what I’ll receive, and that’s what I’ll become. Only the beautiful aspects.
[I tell Walt about the rock bands that I’m in.]
… So many ways to get what you want done from that person; they do things that you enjoy, so we just bridge the gap and go over here and sit down and talk and, “You know what? I like your strength. We were playing that song and your strength…, and if you were ever in control of your nuances, that would be awesome, baby; that would be awesome.” “What did you say, Walt? ‘If I was in control of my nuances?’ Well, hell, I can work on that.” I said, “I know damn well you can work on that.” It’s done… They love you; they love you because you’re giving it to them with love. Remember what you throw out; throw out what you want to come back; throw out the love. I love the love coming back- Oh yes, yes, yes! … Sure, but that’s why we’re alive; we love love comin’ back at us, just being inundated by love comin’ back at us- the greatest feeling there is.
Dudes on the street: “Man, I love you Mr. Dickerson; man, you a cool dude [laughs]. Everywhere, I mean wherever I go. They could be hoods, what some people would call hoods, gangsters- I talk to ‘em; they don’t even know who I am, but I talk to ‘em man-to-man about an issue one of ‘em had.
[His grandmother said,] “Mr. Dickerson, would you talk to ‘em? There’s three of ‘em over there, and I’m tryin’ to tell ‘em they don’t have to do the things they do; life’s not about bein’ a gangster; you’ve got the wrong slant on life.”
“Sure, sure, sure. They your boys? Sure I’ll talk to ‘em.”
“You gonna come down and talk to ‘em? It’s kinda rough down there; it’s kinda rough.”
I said, “How rough is it?”
“Well, you know, shootings go on.”
I said, “The place ever blow up?”
“No, the place never blew up.” [laughs]
I said, “Ok, that’s cool then.” [laughs]
And I go there; I go there, drive down, and usually- I remember three of ‘em in particular - they were considered very hard-core, ok? – and one of ‘em’s grandmother asked me to talk to ‘em – she’s a fan of mine… I’m a father; they’re young men, ok? See, it encompasses all areas of one’s life, ok? The music. I remember this particular incident: the fellow to the right of me was sitting there with the other three, and I walked in; he introduced himself; the other three introduced themselves; a couple of ‘em reluctantly did so. I gave them their handshake. “Oh man!” one of ‘em said. I wasn’t supposed to know their handshake, you understand? I wasn’t one of them. I said, “I don’t have much time, fellas; I don’t have much time, but the time we spend is going to be quality time, ok?” “Yeah, that’s cool.”
Because they were about to do something, ok? I said, “You hope to have kids someday, right?”
“Yeah, I’m gonna have kids; sure, yeah, I’m gonna have kids.”
“You don’t want any harm comin’ to those kids, right? To your kids? You don’t any harm comin’ to ‘em? You have a beautiful little daughter, you don’t want anyone harmin’ her? You have a nice handsome son, you don’t want anybody slidin’ up to him, blowin’ him away, do you? You wouldn’t like that, would you? They’d better not.” I said, “Ok, let’s start now by preventing that from happening.”
“How you gonna do that, man?”
“By you not doing it; by you not doing it; that’s the first thing. There’s gotta be another way, man. I tell you what, I’m gonna invite all of you over to my crib, and then we’re going to talk further.”
“You gonna invite us up to your room?”
“I said up to my crib man? You know where I’m comin’ from; I hope you know where I’m comin’ from.”
“Damn, man, you real. Man, where you get him from, man?” they said to the one who invited me.
“I told you, man,” he said. “I know some down old dudes.”
“There was a very strong rhythm-and-blues element at the club, and they were used to the backbeat and so forth. So, I started to play in that area just for the hell of it, and Andrew picked it up and began to apply the backbeat, and we got into a thing there. I never will forget it-we brought the house down with this blues excursion. After it was over, Andrew ran up to me and said, ‘Damn, Walt, I never knew you could play that shit!'”
The vibist is laughing hard at the memory.
Though some might associate Dickerson specifically with the jazz avant-garde, this anecdote and those that follow indicate that his mind is wide open; limitations of musical genre, nationality, academic discipline, etc. do not obstruct his worldview. Even his concept of chronology is unfettered by traditional demarcations; when asked his birth date, Dickerson replies, “I don’t really adhere to dates. To get caught up in the chronological aspect of things can have a detrimental effect on the mind and body; so I remain ageless.”
For the record, Dickerson was born in 1931 in Philadelphia He grew up in a musical family and was encouraged early on by his mother (a pianist), father (a singer) and his eldest brother (a concert violinist). Outside of the home, he discussed musical ideas with “The Two Johns,” Dennis and Coltrane. (Dickerson played with Coltrane in a big band led by Jimmy Heath that also included the likes of Benny Golson and the bassist Nelson Boyd.)
Dickerson speaks with supreme fondness about Dennis, a pianist who recorded one album for Debut, New Piano Expressions, in the company of Max Roach and Charles Mingus. (Dennis also appears on the Debut LP The Fabulous Thad Jones.)
“We were inseparable coming up,” Dickerson says of Dennis. “He was allowed to create when he came to our house; he could not create the music that he desired to create in his house because of the restrictions leveled by his ‘religious’ parents. John also had a photographic mind, very capable of doing three things simultaneously. As so often happens in America, his genius did not yield the fruits that it should have.”
After graduating from Morgan State University in Baltimore in 1953, serving in the armed forces-Dickerson played in the Seventh Army Symphony in Stuttgart-and spending time in California, Dickerson arrived in New York in 1960. A hometown friend, drummer Philly Joe Jones, helped him secure a recording contract with the Prestige label offshoot New Jazz. It was during this early period that he made his first landmark recording, 1962’s To My Queen, devised as a tribute to his wife, Elizabeth, and featuring such future stars as pianist Andrew Hill and Cyrille. “There is a way to talk about a person that you find ineffable through music,” Dickerson explains, “and my queen, being that ineffable person-music was the way that I could express those very beautiful, poignant, intellectual, brilliant, beautiful sides of her. So therefore it couldn’t fall in the realm of most songs or most compositions in the genre but had to escape those restrictions in order to exemplify her; and in doing so, it opened up a new vista of explorations. It was a very, very happy experience, and I return to that periodically, restating that which is ongoing in our relationship.” Indeed, Dickerson reprised the album’s title track-a midtempo ballad infused with grace and mystery-on a 1978 Steeplechase recording appropriately titled To My Queen Revisited
Spend even a few minutes with Dickerson and you will realize how much his family means to him. As he and I spoke, he constantly showered Elizabeth, who was working in the garden, and his son, Nate, who served up a delicious meal of breaded fish and spicy eggplant, with both verbal and physical expressions of love. In Dickerson’s mind, his relationship with his family is not incidental but rather essential to his music. “[A man] is not a separate entity from his [musical] projections,” he says. “They’re one and the same. Treat them as such, view them as such and then you get the complete picture. Isolate them, and you’ll get a distorted picture, subject to your assumptions, which are erroneous 90 percent of the time.”
This insistence upon unity is a constant theme in Dickerson’s life and work. Though he counts among his close friends many professors and scholars, he remains skeptical of academia in part due to its narrow definition of music education, which tends to separate a person’s life from his creations. “What one espouses verbally is what you’ll hear musically; they’re one and the same,” he insists, “but of course, that isn’t taught in academia; those two areas are separated. ‘Now let’s talk about the man. We’ve discussed his music; now let’s talk about the man’ is the way it goes. Well don’t you know, when you discuss his music, you discuss what he’s about; you’re discussing what the man stands for.”
In the ’60s, apart from his work for New Jazz, Dickerson recorded two unusual albums that featured jazz interpretations of the scores from the films Lawrence of Arabia and A Patch of Blue. For the former, he recruited bassist Henry Grimes, who has recently resurfaced after a three-decade absence from the scene. “Yeah, I was glad to hear that Henry was back-a very fine bassist,” Dickerson says proudly. “He’s from Philly. He came right in and did a fantastic job.” Among his other illustrious sidemen on these dates were Cyrille, drummer Roger Blank and none other than Sun Ra. “Philosophically we had nothing in common,” Dickerson laughs of himself and Ra. “Strangely enough, that’s why I enjoyed his company. I used Sun Ra on several of my recordings because I wanted that difference, that uniqueness that he brought to the table.”
During the late ’60s and early ’70s, Dickerson did not record but nevertheless led a full life. In a recent interview with Dimitri Zhukov, he made this simple statement regarding this period: “I performed in clubs, in colleges, universities, did seminars, enjoyed my life, my wife, my family.” In 1975, he returned with the remarkable Steeplechase recording Peace as well as a Japanese-only record, Tell Us Only the Beautiful Things (Whynot), which again featured Cyrille as well as bassist Wilbur Ware. These dates and the series of Steeplechase records that followed showcased a freer musical direction than Dickerson had pursued previously. The music featured on such fascinating subsequent LPs as Divine Gemini (a series of duets with bassist Richard Davis), Visions (another duet program, with Sun Ra on piano) and To My Son (a heady trio session) is often sparse and ethereal. It is characterized by Dickerson’s fleet, delicate lines, shimmering ambience created by his multilayered vibrato and his trademark “plush tone” (the vibraphonist’s preferred term), which he achieved in part by stripping his mallet tips down to their rubber core.
When asked about his musical influences, Dickerson responds with a characteristically broad-minded manifesto: “You know, I had models early on,” he says. “Then your quest becomes all-consuming, and you’ve accessed the unlimited area of creativity. So, occasionally, I’ll listen to John and John in my relaxing moments-occasionally. Other than that, I’m listening to the sound waves, the music that’s carried by the ether that surrounds us. See, those sounds that are put into the air never leave. It doesn’t matter the confines; there are always sounds around us.”
Gesturing upward toward the trees, the source of a lively chattering of birds, he continues, “You hear the sounds now. That evokes other sounds; hence, there’s a sea of sound. We just don’t consciously listen and hear that sea of sound that we’re in. So much to draw on! And that’s 24 hours! It doesn’t matter where you are-so much to draw on. We’re so rich; our library is inexhaustible-sounds, infinite sounds.”
Much as Dickerson refuses to allow the passage of time to limit his creativity, so does he refute the limitations of musical classification. “I understand the categorization of music, but I really don’t adhere to categories at all,” he says. “See, I see things in their totality, not in their segmented manner that man has superimposed upon them. ‘Did you like the music?’ ‘Fine.’ That’s all that’s necessary.”
From the early 1980s to the present, Dickerson has released only one recording, 1982’s Life Rays on Soul Note, which features Cyrille and the one-name bassist Sirone. He has performed infrequently in the United States. The vibraphonist has hardly been inactive, however: he has toured Europe extensively, both as a solo act and with sidemen including drummer Jimmi Johnsun and bassist Andy McKee, both of whom appeared on To My Son and To My Queen Revisited, among other Dickerson dates.
Dickerson marvels at the gracious receptions he has received abroad: “In our travels, [my wife and I] found beautiful people everywhere, and we’ve been guests in the homes of many people. When our children were younger, this [backyard] used to look like a U.N., children from many nations in the summertime coming to visit and stay with us and our children; that’s how they grew up. This enriches one’s life outside of the cubicle of their ‘country’ or ‘community.’ I don’t see lines: ‘these people, those people.’ I know better than that. Again, that is a superimposition by man, creating differences where no differences in reality actually exist.”
Consistent with Dickerson’s inclusive view of humanity is the fact that he counts among his fans a wide range of people. He recalls being surprised to find one of his New York concerts attended by “over 50 leather-wearing bikers; after which, they asked for a meeting with me. I obliged; they procured a room outside of the auditorium for us to meet. It was one of the most interesting meetings I’ve ever had. I didn’t know I had fans that were bikers. You see, I didn’t see them any differently than anybody else; they were just people to me. So therefore, ‘Let’s talk; let’s communicate; let’s exchange views; let’s get into each others’ heads; let’s enjoy each others’ company.’ And that we did, the wife and myself; we had a ball. Unusual? Yes. Different? Yes. A ball? Yes,” Dickerson laughs.
Surprisingly, Dickerson’s absence from records over the past two decades has not been voluntary. Rather, he states, “You would have to ask the recording industry about that. I’m not one to go in search of [a record label] because I am; therefore, if you are knowledgeable, intelligent and about the process of the music and your position is that of a recording entity, then you should be ringing my phone, giving me a call or knocking at my door.
“Walt is here, ready to record. Give me a call; let’s sit down at the table and do what is best for mankind.”
Though the latter statement may seem arrogant, it merely indicates Dickerson’s confidence in the beneficial effects of his brand of art. “We must remember that the creative flow is a life-giving flow,” he asserts, “and those that are about creativity are projecting and injecting life into the recipients, which I think is most noble and wholesome.”
As one might expect, Dickerson reserves his highest praise for his fellow creators. When speaking of the musicians on the To My Queen date, for example, he appears deeply moved: “Andrew Hill-beautiful projections; [bassist] George Tucker-a rock, sensitive; and of course Andrew [Cyrille]-flourishes, nuances, bracketing the different motifs; he was awesome, and remains to this day, as does Andrew Hill. Two awesome, creative musicians.” Here, Dickerson clarifies his statement: “I don’t consider them musicians; I consider them artists in the highest sense. They’ve surpassed that category, musicians. Periodically those are the individuals I miss because now I do just about exclusively solo performances.”
Just as he still desires to record, Dickerson is enthusiastic about the idea of performing Stateside in the future. He has had many offers to perform in New York but has refused the majority of them due to his strict code of physical well-being. He stipulates, “No clubs, no smoke environment. Concert hall? Fine. I’ve seen too many suffer from various maladies due to those environments. It’s quite a workout performing; you do take in what is around you in great amounts, and it does have an effect. I care not to expose my body or mind to those things that are going to be detrimental to my body and mind-my being.”
Therefore, circa 2003, Walt Dickerson is simply waiting for the right opportunities through which to make his return to performing and recording. In the meantime, he occupies himself with daily “workouts” on the vibes in his basement studio and the enjoyment of life’s basic pleasures.
Raising a glass of ice water and sipping, he reflects: “This is a pleasure. Beautiful day; I just drink it in, just sit out here and drink it in.”
Dickerson is confident in the knowledge that when the opportunity to reemerge arises, he will be ready. “[My next recording] is completed already,” he reveals “I’m not playing every day for naught; I’m creating every day. That’s why I said, ‘The next outing is already done.’ When the call comes, that’ll complete it.”
https://musicians.allaboutjazz.com/waltdickerson
Dickerson made a fairly 'big splash' when his first recordings appeared in the early 60s (Down Beat Critics Poll “New Star”, 1962), but he's remained an enigmatic figure ever since. His early sides demonstrated a sure grasp of the Hampton/Jackson continuum in blazing through standards, but his original compositions on those dates reflected a spiritual, even mystical flavor that was expanded on in recordings into the early 80s.
Dickerson's distinctive melodic and rhythmic approach is complemented by his unique timbre on what is often a cold-sounding and unwieldly instrument - his use of rubber mallets specially-treated to produce a plush and very warm yet crisp sound, immediately recognizable. Of all his recordings, most are in the trio format, none larger than a quintet (with two drummers!), and no horn players appear. There is an underlying current of turbulence yet an overall air of serenity to his work.
Also curious (and frustrating to his small but devoted group of devotees) are Dickerson's long periods of inactivity; no recordings exist between 1966 and 1975, and his last released LP was in 1982. Word has it that he still performs sporadically around his native Philadelphia, even more rarely in New York and the west coast. (Anyone with more information is implored to contact the author!)
Among his more noted collaborators are Sun Ra (both in the 60s and 70s) and Andrew Cyrille, who performed on the great majority of Dickerson's recordings from 1961 (possibly Cyrille's first major recording?) through 1982.
Source: Damon Short
Monday, July 02, 2007
In Full # 1, part two: Walt Dickerson (w/ an Abdul Wadud appetizer)
Before we get to the continuation of the Dickerson interview, make sure you get over to Jazz e Arredores--one of a seemingly infinite amount of incredible Euro free-jazz blogs--and download "By Myself," a 1977 solo cello album by Abdul Wadud. if you don't know Wadud, he did his most prominent work w/ Julius Hemphill, laying down some serious funk on records like "Dogon A.D." and "Coon Bid'ness."
"By Myself" is a masterpiece, and impossible to find at that. some very out sawing-style frenzy on here for the skronk lovers, but also some seriously folksy, lyrical and steady-grooving stuff. the beauty and range of the instrument really come out, i.e. it's like the best parts of solo double bass and solo acoustic guitar wrapped into one. some of this stuff, esp. the first track, reminds me of Robbie Basho in its raga-like churn. read Wadud's awesome liner notes here.
does anyone know of Wadud's current whereabouts? i had assumed he'd passed away b/c i haven't heard of him playing in quite a while, but i have no real evidence to support that.
*****
without further ado, i present to you part two of the Walt Dickerson interview from 6/29/03. first part is here in case you missed it, and a Dickerson mp3 is here if you're curious.
[some quotes depend heavily on inflection, so if you have trouble deciphering what he's getting at in any particular passage, drop a line and i'll try to paraphrase.]
HS: It seems that your music requires a lot of dexterity. Having never seen you live, I’m curious: Do you move around when you play?
WD: I used to - used to - move. That's they way- That's what I felt, and my feelings would cause me to move, and I would move according to my feelings. What I was playing at the time, and- So they would be varied, my physical movements would be varied according to what I was playing at the time. Over a period of time, the movements became less, less pronounced, and now my movements are usually to get over the instruments; sometimes, some passages cause me to move in a very accelerated fashion to get what I'm reaching for. But my movements are less, and I think that's due to being able to reach or access what it is I hear more easily. As the development of the technique increases or increased, the movement became less; the physical movement became less. Yeah, that's how that whole movement thing was.
HS: You played with a lot of people that are not well known, such as the drummer Jimmi Johnsun and the bassist Andy McKee.
WD: Andy McKee is a fine bassist, and he's around New York now to my knowledge; yeah, he's around New York now, and he came to- The last time I saw Andy was when I performed at the Vanguard in New York, and he came down, and we had a nice time together. As a matter of fact, he brought his bass down; he wanted to play in the worst way, but at the time it wasn't possible. But he was in several of the big bands around New York.
Jimmi Johnsun was a musical drummer, a very musical drummer; he played piano also- very tasty. And he played with several of the New York musicians. Their names escape me now, but at the time, they were among the ones doing it on the scene, and Jimmi Johnsun was a part of that group of very good musicians. [He was] out of Baltimore. I know Jimmi from when I was in school at Morgan State University and Peabody Conservatory, and he had a strong desire to go to Europe, and I fulfilled his burning desire to visit Europe, and he performed excellently.
But then, there was Abdul-Malik who was well known, the bassist who was a cornerstone of Monk's quartet for a good while; we had some interesting excursions. Malik, I enjoyed playing with.
I played with all the musicians that- Benny Golson, out of Philly; I played with them. So, along the way, I played with many of them, but I chose certain individuals when I was in New York for the recordings, individuals that appealed to me at the time; I didn't go according to, you know, who they had played with; it didn't matter to me, no. Their talents, their taste was what persuaded me to choose them; all of them that I chose for my recordings, that's what it was based on. There were those that were with the individuals that one would say- front-line individuals that asked, but I didn't care to have them record with me, yeah. Choice, choices was the reason that I chose them, the individuals that did perform with me. Based on musicality, compatibility, and I liked them as human beings; that has a lot to do with it too.
HS: Henry Grimes has resurfaced recently.
WD: Yes, I heard, I heard. Isn't that wonderful?
HS: Have you been in touch with him?
WD: No, I have not. No, I got the wire [Note: Though Grimes’s story was reported in the music magazine the Wire, this is actually a reference to Dickerson’s personal network of musician friends. It’s explained just below.]—of course I always get the information... by way of the wire, I have connections; I'm well-informed of what's going on just about everywhere because people are in constant contact with me, letting me know what's going on. So, I'm not in a void.
Yeah, I was glad to hear that Henry was back- a very fine bassist. I recall, he was on the West Coast- the information I received was that he was on the West Coast and that he's now back. And I think Reggie [Workman]'s doing his best to assist him on his return. That's what I've heard so far, and I’m glad to hear it; I look forward to hearing some things from Henry, yeah, yeah.
He had a brother that was a tremendous tenor saxophonist, tremendous tenor saxophonist. I recall the Grimes brothers... Oh yeah, he's from Philly... Oh yeah, I chose him [for the Jazz Impressions of Lawrence of Arabia session]; he came right in and did a fantastic job.
HS: Who are the other musicians, besides Andrew Cyrille, who make up "the wire"?
WD: Strangely enough, they're- most of them are PhD's at various universities; constant contact. During the summer, they'll be through; they'll call me, and we'll spend time together- come down, come up, come down, come from the West, come from wherever they are. We'll spend a couple of days going over things. A couple musicians- I won't name them, I won't give up my sources, except for the one that you mentioned.
Yeah, having to do with the educational process they find me aggravating at times, but interesting, is the reason why I guess we're still in contact, [why I've] developed a friendship with them. But there's always a heated debate when they come around, and I find it enjoyable, and they find it enjoyable- refreshing. They need that; they need it; I understand that they need it, so I give it to them! They need it in the worst way, and they love me for giving it to them, getting them out of the doldrums of academia.
I understand it's a job, a job, as most of these institutional things are, but don't become enamored with it, you know, like, it is what it isn't. See it for what it is, and do your job. Some find it increasingly difficult; they become rather rebellious as far as the curriculum is concerned, and I've been accused of that- through conversation with some of them, and them becoming rather rebellious and wanting to institute certain things in the curriculum that kind of rub the hierarchy the wrong way. And I've been guilty of that, and happily so; it means I'm doing my job. So musically and verbally, which are the same - One and the same; always remember they're one and the same; what one espouses verbally is what you'll hear musically; they're one and the same; but of course that isn't taught in academia, that they're one and the same; they're separate; those two areas are separated. "Now let's talk about the man. We've discussed his music; now let's talk about the man." is the way it goes. Well, don't you know, when you discuss his music, you discuss what he's about; you're discussing what the man stands for; they're one and the same. Then the person gets a better glimpse of what the person is really about when you put the two together as it should be. He's not a separate entity from his projections; they're one and the same. Treat them as such; view them as such, and then you get the complete picture. Isolate them, and you'll get a distorted picture, not complete, subject to your assumptions, which are ninety percent of the time erroneous. Put them together; like in life, you put them together, and you bypass the automatic bicameral processes, and that's the objective: to become conscious to the state whereby you can pass those bicameral processes. That's evolving because they're automatic bicameral processes; that's an automatic process; those are the automatic processes that occur, no thought involved, subject to hallucinatory events; by way of the automatic bicameral process one is subject to that hallucinatory phenomenon, listening to.
Hence, mysticism; hence the formation of institutions to control and dominate the mass by way of various figures put before them.
HS: Are you talking about religion?
WD: [sarcastically] How keen you must be. Of course. Also astro-quantum-particle physics are involved in that, one of the culprits, dealing in cold fusion, low-energy nano-nanotechnology in the search for the fictional, wishful birthplace of our forever-evolving plasmatic universe by way of the Big Bang. Remember what I told you earlier, and you put the pieces together: Starting here, starting here, starting here - that which forever has been. Fact! Honesty. It's a joy. And as you do that, Hank, some interesting facts come up from your storehouse of facts which are already there. As you meditate, focus on these profound things, things that come to you as some would say out of the blue. No, nothing is by chance; everything can be determined [???]. It appears a bit cloudy at first, but then one focuses; the clouding dissipates, and another fact appears on the photoscreen of your mind, an undeniable fact accompanied by honesty; already there, already there waiting for you to access it.
Some revelations appear so clear, I've had occasions, and my wife also, to just embrace each other with joy, sometimes with tears of joy as to how it occurs, how the process works. They ask me, and they'll ask my wife- she usually passes it on to me- "How long have you been married?" they'll ask my wife. She'll say, "Ask Walt." Well, they're usually kind of reluctant if they've ever said anything to me; they usually have their reservations about asking me things, people in general; I don't know why, but I do know why, because my reply is "Forever." "No, no, no" is what they'll say, "I don't mean that." [laughter] And my reply is, "But I do mean that, but you don't understand what my forever encompasses, and simply, it encompasses forever! Now one day when you have time and I have equal time, I'll be glad to sit down with you and share some things with you so as to bring about some clarity in your mind regarding what I meant by the statement 'forever.'" And that's always an amusing point to make, pursuing that question; it always has been very amusing to me, but it is congruent with being ageless, "Oh, but that's right, we haven't talked, or you would begin to put the pieces together." When we can communicate- I mean communicate - we are of the same age; yesterday, today, and tomorrow are today, thus the sameness on the scale of infinity.
HS: I’m curious about other members of your family. One of your compositions is dedicated to a brother who died, right?
WD: [hesitantly, gravely] Yes, yes, we were very close. Service-related; at sea. Hmmm... a smaller craft capsized and went down. We were very close; we had many moments of joy together early on... [He was] older...
As a matter of fact I had two brothers that passed by way of the service, armed forces. There were four of us; two went that route. So when I speak about wars- totally unnecessary. Initiatory force is only valid in self-defense; other than that, it's destructive and value-less. There is no need for that kind of activity; it does not occur in the civilization of the universe- civilizations of the universes; it does not occur. Again, a fact that we are in the anti-civilization. And I hear them speak; I hear the verbiage: what we must do to them, what we must do to them- I hear it. You can't help but hear it; it's so pervasive; we're being inundated by it. And I did my time in that part of the system, the armed forces, strangely enough; so it's not like I'm speaking as an outsider. I went through that, but even then what did I do? I looked at the gun as if it was my enemy. I looked at the rifle that was given to me to do what, to do what? To commit murder to another mother's son and I knew that wasn't right; I knew that wasn't right.
So then, the forces that I later became aware of told me what to do. I did that. So I was assigned to the Seventh Army Symphony- again, playing music – which is located in Stuttgart, Germany. I also toured with my own quartet while in the service, playing music. I discarded the uniform while I was in the service; I wore civilian clothes while performing in the army; I toured extensively; I enjoyed playing music while in the army.
My eldest brother wasn't as fortunate. When he went in, he was shot unfortunately; he lost his little finger on his left hand. He was a fantastic concert violinist; of course that ended his career as a violinist, as you very well know how important that little finger is.
So, that was my excursion through the service and the realization that there had to be a better way for man to deal with man than warfare. No, that's not civil at all; that's not humane at all. Therefore, the music indicates that. It's there; it happens when performing, various thoughts come across one's mind. Sometimes, it happens before you commence to perform; something will be on your mind of that ilk, and whereas I used to try to shake it from my mind, I learned to embrace it and let the thoughts and creative projections coexist which is what's supposed to happen: one answers the other; therefore it's there in the music.
Oh, what a sea of sound [responding to birds chirping?].
HS: Is there a possibility or a desire for collaboration with other musicians in the future?
WD: There's always been requests; I'm always being requested. Requests are always being made: "Let's do; let's do." And I'm not saying that I won't at some point in time; I probably will at some point. I might just do a duo performance with someone, a concert duo performance. I haven't ruled anything out; nothing is etched in stone, so that remains to be seen.
HS: Your duets have been very artful, sparse and meditative. I think you really pioneered something in your duets with Richard Davis and Pierre Dorge that hasn't been pursued by anyone else.
WD: Yes, you're right; I don't know of it having been pursued by anyone else, but there again, that's the beauty in the art form: there's a niche there, a niche there, so many niches to be filled. That's the nature of what we're dealing with. It isn't necessary. If you want that, there it is; if you enjoy that, there it is; if you enjoy that, there it is. So many areas to be filled; we're dealing with an art of creativity at its highest level. When you're dealing with creativity at its highest level, all of the niches can never be filled; there's a niche for everyone, every artist, and it behooves the artist to seek his or her niche, and, as it has been written, that that is the area of greatness. Be that as it may, it's just something that I'm a part of, and it's a part of me; we are the same, one and the same. So, it is with great honor and distinction that I accept that and cherish that uniqueness. Hopefully, it will allow others - and this has happened to hear that, pinch from it, and try to find their own niche; that has happened: many pinches from it, hopefully in route to finding their own niche. Yes; yes; yes.
HS: You seem to want to record and perform.
WD: Oh yeah! Hank, that's my job; that's what I'm here for; that's my love!
HS: Actually I’m here for the same thing. My band played last night in Philadelphia.
WD: Why didn't you tell me? Yeah, why didn't to tell me! Awww, don't do that!
HS: You would have been into checking it out?
WD: Of course I would have. Wow, wow.
HS: Well, it’s sort of a heavy rock band...
WD: It's funny, one time I was performing someplace, and there was a very strong rhythm and blues element at the club, and they were used to some very hard – you know what I’m talking about – the backbeat and so forth; that’s what they were used to. So, I started to play in that area just for the hell of it and the fact that I can, and Andrew [Cyrille] was the drummer, and Andrew picked it up and began to apply the backbeat, and we got into a thing there [laughs]- I never will forget it; we brought the house down with this backbeat, blues excursion, and after it was over, Andrew ran up to me and said, “Damn, Walt, I never knew you could play that shit!” [laughs] It was one of the funniest experiences. I said, “Man, please, don’t you know that’s how you come up, playin’ everything?” You come up playin’ everything… I forget who the other ones [on the gig] were; it was really just Andrew and myself who got what was going on because I think the other two were just shocked; they weren’t even present really; there was just the two of us, you know, into the thing… I was playing the things that I was playing in the Prestige days… It was back then, but I never forgot it. Oh, you never forget that; oh no; never forget it.
Like I said, we came up playing everything; that’s how we came up. We played everything coming through. You name it: singers, the rest of it. Yeah… It brought me to where I am; it was a part of the growth cycle; sure. It’s enriching, and everybody has their own way of coming through; I don’t say, “You should do this, or you should do that;” no, no, no; it’s not for me to say how you should come through; that’s you; you’re building your uniqueness. How you come through? No, I don’t give advice on that; no. “You should do this; you should do that.” No. I can appreciate you for where you are. I don’t care where you are in your growth cycle; I can see where you are, and I can appreciate where you are. See that’s the difference, knowing that that’s a period in time; that’s where he is or she is at this period in time. “Now let me hear; let me hear.” Then you listen to things; you listen to things; you hear things; beautiful, beautiful. And it doesn’t matter where you are on that scale; you would get nothing but encouragement from me. You see, that’s being who we really are. If I can be an inspiration to a person, if I can uplift their spirits, that’s what I’m about. [We] don’t have to be about the same thing, ok? We can go into a blues house and enjoy it, and enjoy them for where they are.
I’m not to say [whether or not rock is valid]; I’m not to say that. I know they’ve attributed some things about it that they used to attribute to the music that I play. Quote: “Awww, what could be any worse than the devil’s music?” And I’m going to turn around and join that mentality by saying derogatory things about what they say is that music? No, you don’t get that from me; please, please. I’m not there; I’m not there at all; I will not join you as you go about abrogating this music or that music; no, I won’t join you there; no. The same thing has been done to me; should I repeat it? Then I haven’t learned. No, no. I want to hear what you have to say. I don’t care where you are. If I happen to be there, or you happen to be in my presence, I want to hear what you have to say, musically and verbally, and then I’m going to pick out nothing but the delightful aspects of what you said or what you played; those are the only things that are going to come from my lips. You see because if that’s all I look for, that’s what I’ll hear, that’s what I’ll see, that’s what I’ll receive, and that’s what I’ll become. Only the beautiful aspects.
[I tell Walt about the rock bands that I’m in.]
… So many ways to get what you want done from that person; they do things that you enjoy, so we just bridge the gap and go over here and sit down and talk and, “You know what? I like your strength. We were playing that song and your strength…, and if you were ever in control of your nuances, that would be awesome, baby; that would be awesome.” “What did you say, Walt? ‘If I was in control of my nuances?’ Well, hell, I can work on that.” I said, “I know damn well you can work on that.” It’s done… They love you; they love you because you’re giving it to them with love. Remember what you throw out; throw out what you want to come back; throw out the love. I love the love coming back- Oh yes, yes, yes! … Sure, but that’s why we’re alive; we love love comin’ back at us, just being inundated by love comin’ back at us- the greatest feeling there is.
Dudes on the street: “Man, I love you Mr. Dickerson; man, you a cool dude [laughs]. Everywhere, I mean wherever I go. They could be hoods, what some people would call hoods, gangsters- I talk to ‘em; they don’t even know who I am, but I talk to ‘em man-to-man about an issue one of ‘em had.
[His grandmother said,] “Mr. Dickerson, would you talk to ‘em? There’s three of ‘em over there, and I’m tryin’ to tell ‘em they don’t have to do the things they do; life’s not about bein’ a gangster; you’ve got the wrong slant on life.”
“Sure, sure, sure. They your boys? Sure I’ll talk to ‘em.”
“You gonna come down and talk to ‘em? It’s kinda rough down there; it’s kinda rough.”
I said, “How rough is it?”
“Well, you know, shootings go on.”
I said, “The place ever blow up?”
“No, the place never blew up.” [laughs]
I said, “Ok, that’s cool then.” [laughs]
And I go there; I go there, drive down, and usually- I remember three of ‘em in particular - they were considered very hard-core, ok? – and one of ‘em’s grandmother asked me to talk to ‘em – she’s a fan of mine… I’m a father; they’re young men, ok? See, it encompasses all areas of one’s life, ok? The music. I remember this particular incident: the fellow to the right of me was sitting there with the other three, and I walked in; he introduced himself; the other three introduced themselves; a couple of ‘em reluctantly did so. I gave them their handshake. “Oh man!” one of ‘em said. I wasn’t supposed to know their handshake, you understand? I wasn’t one of them. I said, “I don’t have much time, fellas; I don’t have much time, but the time we spend is going to be quality time, ok?” “Yeah, that’s cool.”
Because they were about to do something, ok? I said, “You hope to have kids someday, right?”
“Yeah, I’m gonna have kids; sure, yeah, I’m gonna have kids.”
“You don’t want any harm comin’ to those kids, right? To your kids? You don’t any harm comin’ to ‘em? You have a beautiful little daughter, you don’t want anyone harmin’ her? You have a nice handsome son, you don’t want anybody slidin’ up to him, blowin’ him away, do you? You wouldn’t like that, would you? They’d better not.” I said, “Ok, let’s start now by preventing that from happening.”
“How you gonna do that, man?”
“By you not doing it; by you not doing it; that’s the first thing. There’s gotta be another way, man. I tell you what, I’m gonna invite all of you over to my crib, and then we’re going to talk further.”
“You gonna invite us up to your room?”
“I said up to my crib man? You know where I’m comin’ from; I hope you know where I’m comin’ from.”
“Damn, man, you real. Man, where you get him from, man?” they said to the one who invited me.
“I told you, man,” he said. “I know some down old dudes.”
Walt Dickerson: Unified Vibes
1/1/2004
From a shaded table in the backyard of his home in a suburb of
Philadelphia, the great vibraphonist Walt Dickerson describes a
performance during the 1960s with his longtime friend and collaborator,
drummer Andrew Cyrille.
“There was a very strong rhythm-and-blues element at the club, and they were used to the backbeat and so forth. So, I started to play in that area just for the hell of it, and Andrew picked it up and began to apply the backbeat, and we got into a thing there. I never will forget it-we brought the house down with this blues excursion. After it was over, Andrew ran up to me and said, ‘Damn, Walt, I never knew you could play that shit!'”
The vibist is laughing hard at the memory.
Though some might associate Dickerson specifically with the jazz avant-garde, this anecdote and those that follow indicate that his mind is wide open; limitations of musical genre, nationality, academic discipline, etc. do not obstruct his worldview. Even his concept of chronology is unfettered by traditional demarcations; when asked his birth date, Dickerson replies, “I don’t really adhere to dates. To get caught up in the chronological aspect of things can have a detrimental effect on the mind and body; so I remain ageless.”
For the record, Dickerson was born in 1931 in Philadelphia He grew up in a musical family and was encouraged early on by his mother (a pianist), father (a singer) and his eldest brother (a concert violinist). Outside of the home, he discussed musical ideas with “The Two Johns,” Dennis and Coltrane. (Dickerson played with Coltrane in a big band led by Jimmy Heath that also included the likes of Benny Golson and the bassist Nelson Boyd.)
Dickerson speaks with supreme fondness about Dennis, a pianist who recorded one album for Debut, New Piano Expressions, in the company of Max Roach and Charles Mingus. (Dennis also appears on the Debut LP The Fabulous Thad Jones.)
“We were inseparable coming up,” Dickerson says of Dennis. “He was allowed to create when he came to our house; he could not create the music that he desired to create in his house because of the restrictions leveled by his ‘religious’ parents. John also had a photographic mind, very capable of doing three things simultaneously. As so often happens in America, his genius did not yield the fruits that it should have.”
After graduating from Morgan State University in Baltimore in 1953, serving in the armed forces-Dickerson played in the Seventh Army Symphony in Stuttgart-and spending time in California, Dickerson arrived in New York in 1960. A hometown friend, drummer Philly Joe Jones, helped him secure a recording contract with the Prestige label offshoot New Jazz. It was during this early period that he made his first landmark recording, 1962’s To My Queen, devised as a tribute to his wife, Elizabeth, and featuring such future stars as pianist Andrew Hill and Cyrille. “There is a way to talk about a person that you find ineffable through music,” Dickerson explains, “and my queen, being that ineffable person-music was the way that I could express those very beautiful, poignant, intellectual, brilliant, beautiful sides of her. So therefore it couldn’t fall in the realm of most songs or most compositions in the genre but had to escape those restrictions in order to exemplify her; and in doing so, it opened up a new vista of explorations. It was a very, very happy experience, and I return to that periodically, restating that which is ongoing in our relationship.” Indeed, Dickerson reprised the album’s title track-a midtempo ballad infused with grace and mystery-on a 1978 Steeplechase recording appropriately titled To My Queen Revisited
Spend even a few minutes with Dickerson and you will realize how much his family means to him. As he and I spoke, he constantly showered Elizabeth, who was working in the garden, and his son, Nate, who served up a delicious meal of breaded fish and spicy eggplant, with both verbal and physical expressions of love. In Dickerson’s mind, his relationship with his family is not incidental but rather essential to his music. “[A man] is not a separate entity from his [musical] projections,” he says. “They’re one and the same. Treat them as such, view them as such and then you get the complete picture. Isolate them, and you’ll get a distorted picture, subject to your assumptions, which are erroneous 90 percent of the time.”
This insistence upon unity is a constant theme in Dickerson’s life and work. Though he counts among his close friends many professors and scholars, he remains skeptical of academia in part due to its narrow definition of music education, which tends to separate a person’s life from his creations. “What one espouses verbally is what you’ll hear musically; they’re one and the same,” he insists, “but of course, that isn’t taught in academia; those two areas are separated. ‘Now let’s talk about the man. We’ve discussed his music; now let’s talk about the man’ is the way it goes. Well don’t you know, when you discuss his music, you discuss what he’s about; you’re discussing what the man stands for.”
In the ’60s, apart from his work for New Jazz, Dickerson recorded two unusual albums that featured jazz interpretations of the scores from the films Lawrence of Arabia and A Patch of Blue. For the former, he recruited bassist Henry Grimes, who has recently resurfaced after a three-decade absence from the scene. “Yeah, I was glad to hear that Henry was back-a very fine bassist,” Dickerson says proudly. “He’s from Philly. He came right in and did a fantastic job.” Among his other illustrious sidemen on these dates were Cyrille, drummer Roger Blank and none other than Sun Ra. “Philosophically we had nothing in common,” Dickerson laughs of himself and Ra. “Strangely enough, that’s why I enjoyed his company. I used Sun Ra on several of my recordings because I wanted that difference, that uniqueness that he brought to the table.”
During the late ’60s and early ’70s, Dickerson did not record but nevertheless led a full life. In a recent interview with Dimitri Zhukov, he made this simple statement regarding this period: “I performed in clubs, in colleges, universities, did seminars, enjoyed my life, my wife, my family.” In 1975, he returned with the remarkable Steeplechase recording Peace as well as a Japanese-only record, Tell Us Only the Beautiful Things (Whynot), which again featured Cyrille as well as bassist Wilbur Ware. These dates and the series of Steeplechase records that followed showcased a freer musical direction than Dickerson had pursued previously. The music featured on such fascinating subsequent LPs as Divine Gemini (a series of duets with bassist Richard Davis), Visions (another duet program, with Sun Ra on piano) and To My Son (a heady trio session) is often sparse and ethereal. It is characterized by Dickerson’s fleet, delicate lines, shimmering ambience created by his multilayered vibrato and his trademark “plush tone” (the vibraphonist’s preferred term), which he achieved in part by stripping his mallet tips down to their rubber core.
When asked about his musical influences, Dickerson responds with a characteristically broad-minded manifesto: “You know, I had models early on,” he says. “Then your quest becomes all-consuming, and you’ve accessed the unlimited area of creativity. So, occasionally, I’ll listen to John and John in my relaxing moments-occasionally. Other than that, I’m listening to the sound waves, the music that’s carried by the ether that surrounds us. See, those sounds that are put into the air never leave. It doesn’t matter the confines; there are always sounds around us.”
Gesturing upward toward the trees, the source of a lively chattering of birds, he continues, “You hear the sounds now. That evokes other sounds; hence, there’s a sea of sound. We just don’t consciously listen and hear that sea of sound that we’re in. So much to draw on! And that’s 24 hours! It doesn’t matter where you are-so much to draw on. We’re so rich; our library is inexhaustible-sounds, infinite sounds.”
Much as Dickerson refuses to allow the passage of time to limit his creativity, so does he refute the limitations of musical classification. “I understand the categorization of music, but I really don’t adhere to categories at all,” he says. “See, I see things in their totality, not in their segmented manner that man has superimposed upon them. ‘Did you like the music?’ ‘Fine.’ That’s all that’s necessary.”
From the early 1980s to the present, Dickerson has released only one recording, 1982’s Life Rays on Soul Note, which features Cyrille and the one-name bassist Sirone. He has performed infrequently in the United States. The vibraphonist has hardly been inactive, however: he has toured Europe extensively, both as a solo act and with sidemen including drummer Jimmi Johnsun and bassist Andy McKee, both of whom appeared on To My Son and To My Queen Revisited, among other Dickerson dates.
Dickerson marvels at the gracious receptions he has received abroad: “In our travels, [my wife and I] found beautiful people everywhere, and we’ve been guests in the homes of many people. When our children were younger, this [backyard] used to look like a U.N., children from many nations in the summertime coming to visit and stay with us and our children; that’s how they grew up. This enriches one’s life outside of the cubicle of their ‘country’ or ‘community.’ I don’t see lines: ‘these people, those people.’ I know better than that. Again, that is a superimposition by man, creating differences where no differences in reality actually exist.”
Consistent with Dickerson’s inclusive view of humanity is the fact that he counts among his fans a wide range of people. He recalls being surprised to find one of his New York concerts attended by “over 50 leather-wearing bikers; after which, they asked for a meeting with me. I obliged; they procured a room outside of the auditorium for us to meet. It was one of the most interesting meetings I’ve ever had. I didn’t know I had fans that were bikers. You see, I didn’t see them any differently than anybody else; they were just people to me. So therefore, ‘Let’s talk; let’s communicate; let’s exchange views; let’s get into each others’ heads; let’s enjoy each others’ company.’ And that we did, the wife and myself; we had a ball. Unusual? Yes. Different? Yes. A ball? Yes,” Dickerson laughs.
Surprisingly, Dickerson’s absence from records over the past two decades has not been voluntary. Rather, he states, “You would have to ask the recording industry about that. I’m not one to go in search of [a record label] because I am; therefore, if you are knowledgeable, intelligent and about the process of the music and your position is that of a recording entity, then you should be ringing my phone, giving me a call or knocking at my door.
“Walt is here, ready to record. Give me a call; let’s sit down at the table and do what is best for mankind.”
Though the latter statement may seem arrogant, it merely indicates Dickerson’s confidence in the beneficial effects of his brand of art. “We must remember that the creative flow is a life-giving flow,” he asserts, “and those that are about creativity are projecting and injecting life into the recipients, which I think is most noble and wholesome.”
As one might expect, Dickerson reserves his highest praise for his fellow creators. When speaking of the musicians on the To My Queen date, for example, he appears deeply moved: “Andrew Hill-beautiful projections; [bassist] George Tucker-a rock, sensitive; and of course Andrew [Cyrille]-flourishes, nuances, bracketing the different motifs; he was awesome, and remains to this day, as does Andrew Hill. Two awesome, creative musicians.” Here, Dickerson clarifies his statement: “I don’t consider them musicians; I consider them artists in the highest sense. They’ve surpassed that category, musicians. Periodically those are the individuals I miss because now I do just about exclusively solo performances.”
Just as he still desires to record, Dickerson is enthusiastic about the idea of performing Stateside in the future. He has had many offers to perform in New York but has refused the majority of them due to his strict code of physical well-being. He stipulates, “No clubs, no smoke environment. Concert hall? Fine. I’ve seen too many suffer from various maladies due to those environments. It’s quite a workout performing; you do take in what is around you in great amounts, and it does have an effect. I care not to expose my body or mind to those things that are going to be detrimental to my body and mind-my being.”
Therefore, circa 2003, Walt Dickerson is simply waiting for the right opportunities through which to make his return to performing and recording. In the meantime, he occupies himself with daily “workouts” on the vibes in his basement studio and the enjoyment of life’s basic pleasures.
Raising a glass of ice water and sipping, he reflects: “This is a pleasure. Beautiful day; I just drink it in, just sit out here and drink it in.”
Dickerson is confident in the knowledge that when the opportunity to reemerge arises, he will be ready. “[My next recording] is completed already,” he reveals “I’m not playing every day for naught; I’m creating every day. That’s why I said, ‘The next outing is already done.’ When the call comes, that’ll complete it.”
https://musicians.allaboutjazz.com/waltdickerson
Walt Dickerson
Dickerson made a fairly 'big splash' when his first recordings appeared in the early 60s (Down Beat Critics Poll “New Star”, 1962), but he's remained an enigmatic figure ever since. His early sides demonstrated a sure grasp of the Hampton/Jackson continuum in blazing through standards, but his original compositions on those dates reflected a spiritual, even mystical flavor that was expanded on in recordings into the early 80s.
Dickerson's distinctive melodic and rhythmic approach is complemented by his unique timbre on what is often a cold-sounding and unwieldly instrument - his use of rubber mallets specially-treated to produce a plush and very warm yet crisp sound, immediately recognizable. Of all his recordings, most are in the trio format, none larger than a quintet (with two drummers!), and no horn players appear. There is an underlying current of turbulence yet an overall air of serenity to his work.
Also curious (and frustrating to his small but devoted group of devotees) are Dickerson's long periods of inactivity; no recordings exist between 1966 and 1975, and his last released LP was in 1982. Word has it that he still performs sporadically around his native Philadelphia, even more rarely in New York and the west coast. (Anyone with more information is implored to contact the author!)
Among his more noted collaborators are Sun Ra (both in the 60s and 70s) and Andrew Cyrille, who performed on the great majority of Dickerson's recordings from 1961 (possibly Cyrille's first major recording?) through 1982.
Source: Damon Short
https://www.allaboutjazz.com/a-patch-of-blue-walt-dickerson-verve-music-group-review-by-derek-taylor.php
ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/jul/31/walt-dickerson-tell-us-onlyhttps://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/jul/31/walt-dickerson-tell-us-only
Walt Dickerson: A Patch of Blue
by
The number of recordings featuring Sun Ra as a sideman can easily be
counted one hand and this disc’s near legendary status in the fringes of
jazz folklore stems largely from his presence here in just such a
capacity. Dickerson’s sparse 60’s discography is even greater reason to
celebrate the reissue of this previously scarce material. Add to these
factors the strange nature of the music itself, a series of
improvisations based on the score to a relatively obscure film starring
Sidney Poitier, and the sum total is something to marvel at and ponder
at length. Ra and Dickerson collaborated again on the latter’s 1978
album, “Visions,” for Steeplechase. This disc carries the edge over that
later meeting not only for its vintage, but also from the addition of
Ra’s regular sideman Blank and the versatile Bob Cunningham, whose
facility with fingers and bow are amply applied. A welcome extra is the
opportunity to witness that rarest of musical creatures - the Ra
harpsichord.
The opening “Patch of Blue” begins with a brief,
lopingly melodic theme statement, before Ra enters in a shower of
signature piano clusters. Dickerson’s ethereal lines dodge and weave,
continually aiming at and hitting the bullseye for maximum luminosity.
Cunningham walks a firm rhythm atop Blank’s iridescent brushes. Later
the bassist deftly unsheathes his bow and devises a melancholic arco
solo, whilst Ra’s harpsichord delivers metallic flourishes to
Dickerson’s resonating tones.
“Bacon and Eggs” bubbles along at a shuffling gait and features some sensitive, but nonetheless grooving interplay between Dickerson and Ra. Cunningham again crafts a deep throbbing sound from his strings that carries the tune’s center. “High Hopes” displays Ra at his most lyrical and Dickerson at his most ruminative. Both men twist gossamer ropes of sound around the piece’s haunting melody once again anchored in Cunningham’s almost subterranean pulse. On “Alone in the Park” the versatile bassist constructs a granite-like edifice of rhythm phalanxed by Blank’s loose cymbals and drums. Dickerson really opens things up on this one, his mallets radiating lucent halos of sonic electricity. “Part 2” slows to an undulating drawl and again Ra’s harpsichord rears its quixotic head as Dickerson’s restless mallets posit a fractured message of unease. “Selina’s Fantasy” thrives on more angularity while serving as the leader’s finest moment in a program blessed with many rivals. Throughout the entire disc Dickerson’s humming, wordless vocals are audible over his phosphorescent vibes and his frequent use of his elongated sustain contributes to the spherical warmth of his improvisations.
Reissued as part of Verve’s Elite series, the disc is strictly limited edition and consequently carries a steep price tag. Don’t let the expenditure required dissuade you. The first rate packaging, copious liner notes, and most importantly the music make this one to acquire before the finite supplies are depleted.
“Bacon and Eggs” bubbles along at a shuffling gait and features some sensitive, but nonetheless grooving interplay between Dickerson and Ra. Cunningham again crafts a deep throbbing sound from his strings that carries the tune’s center. “High Hopes” displays Ra at his most lyrical and Dickerson at his most ruminative. Both men twist gossamer ropes of sound around the piece’s haunting melody once again anchored in Cunningham’s almost subterranean pulse. On “Alone in the Park” the versatile bassist constructs a granite-like edifice of rhythm phalanxed by Blank’s loose cymbals and drums. Dickerson really opens things up on this one, his mallets radiating lucent halos of sonic electricity. “Part 2” slows to an undulating drawl and again Ra’s harpsichord rears its quixotic head as Dickerson’s restless mallets posit a fractured message of unease. “Selina’s Fantasy” thrives on more angularity while serving as the leader’s finest moment in a program blessed with many rivals. Throughout the entire disc Dickerson’s humming, wordless vocals are audible over his phosphorescent vibes and his frequent use of his elongated sustain contributes to the spherical warmth of his improvisations.
Reissued as part of Verve’s Elite series, the disc is strictly limited edition and consequently carries a steep price tag. Don’t let the expenditure required dissuade you. The first rate packaging, copious liner notes, and most importantly the music make this one to acquire before the finite supplies are depleted.
Track Listing: A Patch of Blue (Part 1), A Patch of Blue
(Part 2), Bacon & Eggs, High Hopes, Alone in the Park (Part 1),
Alone in the Park (Park 2), Selina
Personnel: Walt Dickerson- vibraphone, Sun Ra- piano, harpsichord, Bob Cunningham, double bass, Roger Blank, drums, tympani.
Title: A Patch of Blue | Year Released: 1999 | Record Label: Verve Music Group
https://indianapublicmedia.org/nightlights/vibes-for-walt-walt-dickerson-rip/
https://markweber.free-jazz.net/2016/01/28/walt-dickerson-1928-2008-interview-w-mike-johnston-may-1-1995/ Personnel: Walt Dickerson- vibraphone, Sun Ra- piano, harpsichord, Bob Cunningham, double bass, Roger Blank, drums, tympani.
Title: A Patch of Blue | Year Released: 1999 | Record Label: Verve Music Group
https://indianapublicmedia.org/nightlights/vibes-for-walt-walt-dickerson-rip/
Vibes for Walt: Walt Dickerson, R.I.P.
Andrew Cyrille, who made some of his earliest recording dates with vibraphonist Walt Dickerson, passes along this sad news via the Jazz Programmer Listserv:
To all concerned:
I was asked to inform you of the regrettable death of vibraphonist Walt Dickerson, by his beloved wife, Elizabeth. Walt passed away on May 15 from cardiac arrest. He was 80 years of age and lived in Willow Grove, PA.
In sympathy, Andrew Cyrille
I first came to Dickerson through my interest in Andrew Hill–the pianist appeared on what some consider to be Dickerson’s finest album, To My Queen. Determined to snap up and listen to every early date of Hill’s,
I
ended up falling in love with the darkly spry sound of the vibraphonist
he was accompanying. (Lionel Hampton’s vibes usually put me in mind of
a showbizzy nightclub’s bright stage lights; Bobby Hutcherson’s tended
to evoke existential 1960s smoke; Dickerson’s conjured a quick,
expectant walk along a shadowstruck city sidewalk after the gig was
over). I’ve always marveled at how quiet and lustrous Dickerson’s
vibraphone playing was; rereading Francis Davis’ liner notes to the
late-1990s reissue of Impressions of a Patch of Blue
(a quartet treatment of a Jerry Goldsmith score for a 1965 Sidney
Poitier social-message flick, featuring Sun Ra taking a rare turn as
sideman) gave me insight into part of how that sound came about:
Dickerson’s first step upon buying a new pair of mallets is to strip away their fur; he then soaks the exposed rubber tips in a mineral solution to get a sound he describes as “plush,” though paradoxically, it is also hard. His use of smaller mallets, gripped closer to the tip than is the custom for vibraphonists, allows Dickerson extraordinary speed on the bars, and because he uses his motor and damping bar so sparingly (if tellingly), he vibrates less than any other vibraphonist. The tradeoff is a lack of volume commensurate to Dickerson’s lack of vibrato, and this is surely one of the reasons why he steadfastly refuses offers to work as a sideman, why he has never featured a horn in his own groups… and why he now mostly plays solo on his frequent trips to Europe and Japan. He is one of only a handful of improvisers whose instrumental style amounts to a free-standing musical conception.
I’m mostly familiar with (and can swear by) Dickerson’s early-1960s Prestige New Jazz albums, although the Goldsmith soundtrack referenced above is very good (and not the only time that Dickerson recorded with Sun Ra), making fine, brooding use of rather slight material. (Dickerson made a similar album, Jazz Impressions of Lawrence of Arabia, that I’m still hoping to track down some day.) For further reflection, check out Dark Forces Swing Blind Punches’ invaluable post on Dickerson, which includes a musical track from Dickerson’s 1977 solo tour de force Shades of Love, as well as a two-part interview conducted with the vibraphonist in 2003. Derek Taylor’s 2000 One Final Note piece offers an in-depth retrospective on the New Jazz albums. Dickerson, whose discography stops at 1982, certainly wasn’t “underrated” by those who knew his music, but he was sadly underheard, even though much of his 1960s and 70s catalogue has been in print for the past few years–and though I’ve long wanted to do a show about him, I regret that such a program hasn’t come to pass yet. Farewell and thanks to another hidden hero of the jazz world.
NOTE: some sources give Dickerson’s birth year as 1931, but Andrew Cyrille’s message would seem to indicate that he was born three to four years earlier. Joshua Jackson’s WBGO blog tribute gives a birth date of April 16, 1928, which would have made Dickerson 80 when he passed away.
UPDATE: Tenor saxophonist and online jazz wordsmith Jim Sangrey reflects insightfully on what made Dickerson’s music special.
To all concerned:
I was asked to inform you of the regrettable death of vibraphonist Walt Dickerson, by his beloved wife, Elizabeth. Walt passed away on May 15 from cardiac arrest. He was 80 years of age and lived in Willow Grove, PA.
In sympathy, Andrew Cyrille
I first came to Dickerson through my interest in Andrew Hill–the pianist appeared on what some consider to be Dickerson’s finest album, To My Queen. Determined to snap up and listen to every early date of Hill’s,
I
ended up falling in love with the darkly spry sound of the vibraphonist
he was accompanying. (Lionel Hampton’s vibes usually put me in mind of
a showbizzy nightclub’s bright stage lights; Bobby Hutcherson’s tended
to evoke existential 1960s smoke; Dickerson’s conjured a quick,
expectant walk along a shadowstruck city sidewalk after the gig was
over). I’ve always marveled at how quiet and lustrous Dickerson’s
vibraphone playing was; rereading Francis Davis’ liner notes to the
late-1990s reissue of Impressions of a Patch of Blue
(a quartet treatment of a Jerry Goldsmith score for a 1965 Sidney
Poitier social-message flick, featuring Sun Ra taking a rare turn as
sideman) gave me insight into part of how that sound came about:Dickerson’s first step upon buying a new pair of mallets is to strip away their fur; he then soaks the exposed rubber tips in a mineral solution to get a sound he describes as “plush,” though paradoxically, it is also hard. His use of smaller mallets, gripped closer to the tip than is the custom for vibraphonists, allows Dickerson extraordinary speed on the bars, and because he uses his motor and damping bar so sparingly (if tellingly), he vibrates less than any other vibraphonist. The tradeoff is a lack of volume commensurate to Dickerson’s lack of vibrato, and this is surely one of the reasons why he steadfastly refuses offers to work as a sideman, why he has never featured a horn in his own groups… and why he now mostly plays solo on his frequent trips to Europe and Japan. He is one of only a handful of improvisers whose instrumental style amounts to a free-standing musical conception.
I’m mostly familiar with (and can swear by) Dickerson’s early-1960s Prestige New Jazz albums, although the Goldsmith soundtrack referenced above is very good (and not the only time that Dickerson recorded with Sun Ra), making fine, brooding use of rather slight material. (Dickerson made a similar album, Jazz Impressions of Lawrence of Arabia, that I’m still hoping to track down some day.) For further reflection, check out Dark Forces Swing Blind Punches’ invaluable post on Dickerson, which includes a musical track from Dickerson’s 1977 solo tour de force Shades of Love, as well as a two-part interview conducted with the vibraphonist in 2003. Derek Taylor’s 2000 One Final Note piece offers an in-depth retrospective on the New Jazz albums. Dickerson, whose discography stops at 1982, certainly wasn’t “underrated” by those who knew his music, but he was sadly underheard, even though much of his 1960s and 70s catalogue has been in print for the past few years–and though I’ve long wanted to do a show about him, I regret that such a program hasn’t come to pass yet. Farewell and thanks to another hidden hero of the jazz world.
NOTE: some sources give Dickerson’s birth year as 1931, but Andrew Cyrille’s message would seem to indicate that he was born three to four years earlier. Joshua Jackson’s WBGO blog tribute gives a birth date of April 16, 1928, which would have made Dickerson 80 when he passed away.
UPDATE: Tenor saxophonist and online jazz wordsmith Jim Sangrey reflects insightfully on what made Dickerson’s music special.
Walt Dickerson | Photo courtesy of Chris Trent
Mike Johnston asked if my crew at JFM would mount this interview with vibraphone maestro Walt Dickerson, and here it is. Mike is a good friend and I play his music as often as I can on my radio show and now this addition to the annals of jazz reminds me to dig out my old Walt Dickerson LPs, I used to listen to his music quite a lot at one time.—-Mark Weber
Walt Dickerson (1928 – 2008)
Interview w/ Mike Johnston May 1, 1995
This interview with Walt Dickerson was
originally intended to be issued in Coda Publications. One of my
objectives in writing for Coda was to expose lesser known quality
musicians to a wider audience. At the time that I conducted this
interview there were no interviews of Walt published in any magazines
that I was aware of. Subsequently a couple of interesting interviews
have surfaced, and I have included a link for interested readers at the
end of my interview. Originally I transcribed our telephone conversation
to disc, but somewhere along the way I misplaced the recording and
copy. Therefore, regretfully, it never was published in Coda. I recently
found the disc and wanted to make this interview available for people
that dig his music.
To date there have been no releases
issued of his music recorded after 1982. He has indeed been under
documented in every sense. Surprisingly, all of his albums have been
reissued on CD, and several include quality bonus tracks.
Walt Dickerson had a very unique and
singular approach on the vibraphone, an instrument rarely featured, even
in jazz. He had a “plush sound” (his words) and even today remains one
of the most distinguished voices on the instrument. After the 60’s Walt
quit playing and recording standard tunes. From 1976, beginning with his
album “Tell Us Only the Beautiful Things”, to the end of his life his
music is very personal, open and distinct. During this latter period his
music unfolds and flows organically, taking the listener on sensitive
and intimate musical journeys.
Mike: I’m curious what
you’re up to now in terms of performing and recording your music? I
haven’t seen any new recordings in quite a while.
Mike: Have you been performing live there?Walt: Well, recordings in America have not come my way for whatever reason. And I really haven’t been looking either. I don’t even know what’s going on in the States as far as recording opportunities are concerned, because I haven’t been pursuing them. I’ve been fortunate to have made friends the past decade, particularly in the Mediterranean area. So I’ve been back and forth quite a bit to that part of the world. And that has been very positive for me, monetarily, musically, and friendship-wise.
Walt: Yes, and mostly solo. I’m enjoying the solo circuit.
Mike: Pardon me for
referring to recordings, but that’s my only reference to your music. The
only solo recording that I’m familiar with is the “Shades of love”
album on the Steeplechase label. Is that reflective of what you’re doing
musically right now?
Mike: Who are some of your musical influences?Walt: Actually I’ve moved into a different thing all together now. And it’s difficult to describe because I feel that the progress is of another dimension. First of all, my music has always been considered spiritual and even more so as time has passed. Realizing where it comes from and giving the glory to the source allows me growth in the music sphere over and above the academics of the music. I’m fortunate, as I have been able to view the overall situation, I’ve met a lot of great people and have remained married and close to my wife for many years. She is my most beautiful and diligent fan. I feel fortunate in that respect as well, especially when I look around and see the situation of my fellow artists. I’ve been blessed and I give credit to the creator for this. Also my music now is in the realm of dealing with aspects of understanding and accepting spiritual life forces. It’s opened up a sphere of musical possibilities whereby my musical improvisational projections come from another dimension. I’ve been delving into that area for the past ten years now. Which has brought me to a point of constant elation as far as my music is concerned.In the past decade several vibraphonists have said how they have pinched ideas from my musical projections. This also gives me joy because passing music along and connecting is what it is all about.
Mike: Did you interact with Coltrane in Philadelphia when you were younger?Walt: Those that influenced me the most are the honorable Mr. Art Tatum, the noble Mr. Charlie Parker, and the majestic Mr. John Coltrane. I speak of them in awe as they all nurtured me from the beginning.
Mike: How did your first recording, “This is Walt Dickerson,” come about?Walt: Yes, I did. As a matter of fact we were in the Jimmy Heath Big Band together in the Philadelphia area.
Walt: That came about because of phone calls that were made by John Coltrane and Philly Joe Jones. Their recommendations opened the door for me to record for the Prestige label.
Mike: While you’re
talking about some other musicians, I’m interested to ask if you would
offer some comments in regards to your personal connection with Sun Ra. I
know that you recorded the duet record “Visions” in 1976 and also the
“Impressions of a Patch of Blue” album with him, recorded in the mid
60’s.
Mike: I think that your duet recording with Sun Ra,“Visions” is really beautiful and unique. I listen to it frequently.Walt: Our relationship was a beautiful one. I found Sonny to be an interesting and beautiful person. He accepted musical ideas from me that I didn’t feel that he was open to from others. And I’m glad our relationship was such that he did accept ideas from me and that’s why we had the type of relationship that we did. There was a real give and take there between us.
Mike: Actually, about 5 or 6 years ago I saw the Arkestra play in Stockholm at the Museum of Modern Art. I don’t know if that was the only time he’d been there?Walt: That’s beautiful, Mike. We did a lot of improvising on that recording and we had taken a journey prior to it. A lot happens prior to a recording. It’s what I call stage-setting an atmosphere. And it has a lot to do with meditation and getting in touch with each other as far as the spiritual realm is concerned. That kind of thing preceded the recording, which took it to another level. I love Sonny’s creative projections on that album.Sonny wanted to go to Scandinavia, at the time too, but things didn’t work out along those lines. We tried but they didn’t happen for him. I think that’s the only area that he didn’t make it to.
Mike: Do you keep up or are you concerned much with reissues of your recordings?Walt: At the time that we did the first album, he wanted to go to Sweden. I let people there know of his desire but I guess it was late in coming. I guess it happened many years after that when he made a brief appearance. Perhaps it was the concert that you caught?
Mike: In other words you’re being viewed primarily in terms of sales and recognition?Walt: You know, Mike, it doesn’t concern me very much. I’m aware of them and people might be surprised at how many have been reissued in Latin America. All the Prestige recordings are available there as well as the one I did for Audio Fidelity. But the beautiful aspect of it for me is that in Portugal, Spain, Italy, and Poland, many of my works have been adapted for ballet. I have recently received these reports from the different ballets in these countries.Actually, everything that’s transpired is interesting to me. Through the years some individuals have expected me to be angry about the fact that I have had limited recording and playing opportunities. I understand what they’re talking about. But you see, I’ve done a lot of introspection and become aware of things on a higher level, and I realize that I have no room for anger because it’s self-defeating. I try not to focus much on the death cycle and but I remain interested in the creative side of things, or in other words, the life cycle. I stay focused and try not to look down on negative situations that have transpired through the years. I see a totality of life and music. My life is not separate from my creations. The writers in other countries often ask me about the American scene and why it is that I’m not a household name. They feel that I should be because of the innovative approach that I have on my instrument. And they think that I should be angry because I’ve been largely ignored in America. But I have no need for anger because I’ve been very fortunate overall. And this seems to confuse them, but I think they’re viewing my life as one-dimensional and don’t consider other aspects of it.
Mike: Have you been almost exclusively playing solo for the last ten years?Walt: That’s correct. And these aspects to music and life aren’t of great importance to me. When others try to grasp my perspective the discussion often gets directed to aspects of fulfillment of the soul. But this discussion also seems limited and one dimensional to me, because in breaking it down, I see personal will and emotions as important components of the soul. Not in the context, as viewed by many, as say “soul” music. But an understanding that will and emotion are ingredients of the soul. When that dimension of music is full or complete it is deeply satisfactory.
Walt: Yes almost exclusively, but recently I took a trio gig at the Vanguard in N.Y. Andrew Cyrille was on drums and Doug Gersher (?) was on bass. I asked Andy Mckee but he wasn’t available. I love his playing.
Mike: Recently in
Cadence jazz magazine, there was an interview with Andrew Cyrille and he
talked about the type of mallets that you use and mentioned that you
play at a quieter volume level and are also concerned with sound itself.
So I wonder if you would mind discussing the idea of sound.
Mike: Was this a slow process or is this something that you came to more quickly?Walt: Sound is so important, and it’s difficult for me discuss sound and omit execution too. The two are the same, if you understand what I’m saying. Each is an integral part of the other. My approach has always been to be physically close to the instrument, very close. This is different than the approach that is taught on the instrument. I was unable to play intricate things on the instrument with the commonly taught approach. The music that the creator sends me is not of a cosmetic nature; it seems to come as streams of intricate passages of flowing imagery. This means that I can’t use the common approach to the instrument in order to perform these passages. So I’ve modified a complete personal style or technique so I can play the music I receive. So, in adapting my personal approach to playing my instrument my sound has adapted as well. Both are a part of the projection.
Mike: Francois Rabbath, a bassist that I like, mentioned that it’s one thing to be a good musician, but it’s another thing to project a vision of what you’re playing. I get this sense from your music. Can you comment on this idea?Walt: The revelation came in a short span of time. But to effectively work it out took a long period of time. I had to work quite hard at it.
Mike: That’s pretty wild; I can honestly say I have had some overwhelming moments playing music but nothing ever like that.Walt: I’ll tell you Mike, you being a fellow artist, and I’ve discussed this with very few other artists. First of all, when I listen to other artists and I sense a similarity or this kind of spiritual connection, I also look to see if there’s an excursion. An aspect of playing music that comes by way of another level in the music. These are often the kinds of things that get called magical. For me it is an important dimension of music. I’ve had experiences and it happens more frequently now whereby I view myself, I actually see myself performing. What some people call an out of body experience. And most of the time I enjoy observing what’s coming through and I can stay in that state for, I’d say, as long as five minutes. My wife and I have developed a way to measure the length of time that these states sustain in performance. I see me and can watch part of my performance as a spectator.
Walt: If you stay open Mike, I believe that it will come, because it does happen. I bear witness to that. And I give the glory to God. And this speaks to our earlier discussion on personal musical and life fulfillment. This is also why I don’t like to greet audiences right away after playing because I’m in such a state of elation and giving praise to God for the experience, do you follow me? I need that down time because I realize it isn’t me that keeps this flow going. I find that it also intensifies for me by giving recognition to it. You have to keep very open and when you do, you receive more. It’s difficult because people want to talk with you after performances, and I don’t like to be misunderstood because I appreciate the audience as well. It’s beautiful to talk about these heavy things. Oh, so beautiful (gently laughing). Thank you.Mike: With what you’ve just said, do you think the standard concert performance setting is a good or natural setting for you to perform your music in?
Mike: Do you work with any set musical forms or concepts in your current approach?Walt: What I’m doing is not in the natural realm. What this is about is in the supernatural realm. And that’s a different perspective, Mike. I’d describe it as a projection from the supernatural realm. In America in particular the public or audience lacks a lot of musical knowledge. They suffer from lack of knowledge and this restricts opportunities for me to play my music and similar styles that others play. Music is a good barometer for the overall intelligence of people. Because if the audience is intelligent they are sensitive to music as a high art form and open to multiple possibilities.
Mike: You play a tempered tuned musical instrument. Do you feel any restrictions in what we’re talking about? It seems like you need a contemporary Harry Partch type of individual to build you an instrument.Walt: To start with my concept is not let’s get together and play music, but let’s make music. There’s a difference. You go where your spirit takes you, where your ear takes you. If we’re playing a duet, ok, you play a motif, or a line. Be my guest. Play a line. I’m with you. You play your line. I’m with you. I’ll superimpose upon that. That’s what it is — superimposition. And through close listening and our abilities we’ll create a composition together. We creatively enter the infinite unending flow together.This approach to creating music with people seems to happen only with people that have a need to play this way. And that is pure uninhibited music and development. Most players can’t get away from their concepts and get caught up in webs of musical rules—- don’t do this, watch those overtones, be careful, oh don’t do that. That’s a dominant, you can’t put that there. Oh why did you raise that four—– Gee whiz, when people play like this, genuine beauty simply gets omitted!
Mike: Because of your touch on the instrument and your awareness and sensitivity to sound, I hear those quarter tone things happening, in a sense; do you know what I’m saying?Walt: I have asked a couple of the individuals that make the instruments to make a set of vibes in only one or two octaves, and to break it down it down into quarter tones. So you would augment the instrument so the instrument would be twice the size. But, it would only be one or two octaves. And of course they looked at me like I was a bit crazy and said we’ll get back to you. But of course they never got back to me.You have the ability on your string bass to do that, you see. But I’m inhibited from that because of the make-up of my instrument. Whereby, if the instrument was built with an expanded quarter tone scale, the other sounds that I hear could be projected better.
Walt: Yes, I know what you’re saying. And sometimes I try by way of a trill to get the in between. But that’s been as close as I’ve been able to do that kind of thing.
Mike: You recorded and played with Wilbur Ware some. He’s such an iconic bassist I wonder if you mind commenting on him.
Mike: Did you start out playing a different instrument other than the vibes?Walt: Wilbur was a very natural player and his playing moved me deeply. But he was not in the other realm. And I specifically call that realm the supernatural, yes. But, he was a beautiful natural player, yes. I also love Richard Davis, Sirone and Andy Mckee. They are great explorers of the bass as well. And all play from the heart.
Mike: Andrew Cyrille was on your first record and you still play with him can you talk about him?Walt: Oh yes, yes, I ran through about four instruments. As a matter of fact I was taking drum lessons at this particular studio that I would go to. There was a set of xylophones there and I used to play around on them prior to taking my drum lessons. And then I got myself into xylophone and then there was a set of vibes down at the other end of the studio and I found myself going from one to another and then I said oh wait a moment now, I think I’d like to switch instruments. I came home to my mom and she said well if that’s what you want to do, if that’s the instrument that you really like and you want to explore that instrument, then fine, you can play them. My mom was always perceptive concerning my desires and everything else in life. As a matter of fact, she encouraged me to explore all areas of study because I was inquisitive intellectually as well. And that was sometimes annoying to my father because I was a bit too inquisitive for him. So she encouraged me along those lines and of course my pop, he eventually got me the set of vibes and that’s how the love affair began. Yes, beautiful.
Mike: Thank you, it’s been nice visiting with you and getting thoughtful and insightful information about you and your music. Would you like to add any comments?Walt: Andrew I met in New York, I call him the mad Haitian. He’s a beautiful young man. That’s why we were together so long. Andrew is a very open supernatural player as well. He can play anyway the music goes. Yes, he’s fantastic. He’s definitely in there. I love making music with him.
Walt: Only that I’d like to thank you for being willing to discuss music in open and honest terms. It’s been a pleasure Mike.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
Mike Johnston is a bassist and founding member of the Northwoods Improvisers jazz ensemble. He currently teaches music courses at Delta college and Mid Michigan Community College. He hosts a Jazz program on CMU Public Radio based in central lower Michigan called Destination Out Sunday evenings at 11 PM.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/jul/31/walt-dickerson-tell-us-onlyhttps://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/jul/31/walt-dickerson-tell-us-only
Walt Dickerson: Tell Us Only the Beautiful Things
3 / 5 stars
(WhyNot/Candid)
Philadelphia
vibraphonist Dickerson died last year, after a career that saw him
heralded as a 1960s avant-garde innovator and then so neglected that he
dropped out from 1965-75, and appeared only fitfully thereafter. But
Dickerson (whose partners included John Coltrane, Sun Ra and Andrew
Hill) was an astonishing vibraphonist who eschewed the instrument's
traditionally soft-lights glow in favour of a brittle, woody sound, and
who could improvise such fast melodies that his mallets seemed barely to
be making contact. There are just two long tracks on this 1975 set,
with Wilbur Ware on bass and Andrew Cyrille on drums. The leader opens
the first with a seven-minute meditation, mixing soft-struck reveries
with rushing runs, before Ware's bass adds rolling interjections over
Cyrille's rattlesnake noises, and the piece steadily changes in mood as
the drums gather to a storm. The title track is a wistfully simple theme
that goes from Dickerson's mercurial touch over a low percussion rumble
to a freewheeling three-way jam. It's an unadorned venture of monastic
purity, but if this were the unsung Dickerson's only epitaph, it would
be a triumphant one.
THE MUSIC OF WALT DICKERSON: AN EXTENSIVE VIDEO OVERVIEW, A CROSS SECTION OF RECORDINGS, MUSICAL ANALYSIS AND COMMENTARY, PLUS VARIOUS INTERVIEWS WITH WALT DICKERSON:
